Dharma Lab

Hello, welcome everyone to another episode of Dharma Lab. I’m very honored and excited to be here with our two guests. Of course, I’m here with Richie Davidson, who many of you already know, one of the most well-known neuroscientists on the planet. And we’re here with a true icon of the world’s meditative tradition, Sharon Salzberg, who’s also a dear friend, and truly one of those people who, when the history books are written about the manifestation of these meditative traditions in the modern world, played an incredibly important role.

Just before this started, we were all chatting, and Sharon, you were mentioning that this is the 50th anniversary of the Insight Meditation Society. IMS, as it’s commonly referred to, is certainly one of the first and one of the most important centers for Buddhist practice and meditation in the modern world. Sharon is one of the co-founders of IMS, back in the 1970s. It’s hard to believe it’s been 50 years.

She has written some of the most well-known books in the meditation world. Loving-Kindness — she literally wrote the book on loving-kindness, and has been the main proponent of it as one of the main forms of meditation coming out of the Buddhist tradition, traditionally known as metta. She also has a podcast, Metta Hour, which both Richie and I have been on. And she’s written many other books, including her first children’s book, Kind Carl.

Richie Davidson

I read it to my six-year-old granddaughter, who loved it, absolutely loved it, and wanted more copies to give to all her friends.

Cort Dahl

And many, many other books — Real Life, Real Love, Real Happiness, a whole series. Loving-Kindness, the book I mentioned first, is really a modern classic. It was one of the first books I read back in the nineties when I was starting to meditate. So, Sharon, you’ve been an inspiration to so many of us — through your writing, through co-founding IMS, through your endless teaching all over the world. It’s an honor to have you.

I thought we could start with a story I’ve heard a few times and always found moving: His Holiness the Dalai Lama visiting the United States for the first time, and your interactions with him. Let’s start there, and see where the conversation goes.

(03:33) The Dalai Lama and the crutches

Sharon Salzberg

Sure. And I’m so happy and honored to be with the two of you, truly. We co-founded the retreat center — Jack Kornfield, Joseph Goldstein and I — in 1976. It’s in Barre, Massachusetts, about 40 minutes from Amherst. In 1979 we heard the Dalai Lama was coming to Amherst, so, being young and bold, we wrote a letter to his private office and said, maybe you’d like to visit us too. And to our amazement, we got a letter back saying, yes, he’ll come.

It was an incredibly zooey day. We had sheriffs and people patrolling the roof with guns, the street blockaded. A very intense day. And I’d been in a car accident a few weeks before — I had a broken bone in my foot and was using crutches, which I was not very skilled with. So I was standing way at the back of about a hundred people. His car pulled up, he got out, and he did something I’ve seen him do many times since, but it was the first time. It’s almost like he has a kind of radar for who in a crowd is suffering the most, and that was me. He cut through a hundred people, took my hand, looked me in the eye, and said, what happened?

Standing there in the back, I’d been thinking, I’m so stuck back here, this is terrible — I helped start this place, and here I am at the back. But if I go up front I’ll fall on my face, because I’m so bad with the crutches, so I’d better stay in the back. And he just dissolved that with that one gesture. It sort of redefined compassion for me, because he certainly couldn’t have made the injury not happen, or made me any better with the crutches. But that horrible feeling of being so alone, so unseen, so stuck in the back — it just dissolved.

There’s another story from that visit, and there are many. We had a retreat going, about two weeks in, and the Dalai Lama asked to go into the meditation hall and give a talk. Then he asked for questions. A young man raised his hand and said, I’ve been meditating for about two weeks and I realize it’s not going to work for me. I can’t do it. I don’t have the capacity to grow or learn or get more loving or more mindful. I just can’t do it. And the Dalai Lama looked at him and said, well, you’re wrong. You’re just wrong.

He went on to talk about buddha nature — one’s capacity, which it’s believed is never ever destroyed. A capacity for growth and understanding and change. It may be covered over, it may be hard to find, but it’s never ever destroyed. And the funny thing is, after the talk, all these people came up to me and said, the Dalai Lama shouldn’t have said that. That’s bad pedagogy. You should never tell anyone they’re wrong. But you know who got a huge amount out of it? The young man, for whom it was such an important message. You should have a little more faith in yourself, and in the possibility of change.

Cort Dahl

That’s so beautiful. The image of the Dalai Lama cutting through all those people — at a moment where most of us would be on autopilot, this is what you do in this situation, you shake hands and wave. And he didn’t. He was just utterly human, and could see beyond the dynamics. I’ve always found that story so beautiful.

Richie Davidson

I love that story too. I have this image of our detectors, our antenna, for suffering, that can actually be developed. And the Dalai Lama is such an extraordinary exemplar of that. Wherever suffering is occurring, he makes a beeline for it.

Cort Dahl

And the human element is something I really think about with you as a teacher. I was just having lunch with my wife, Kasumi. We’ve been together thirteen, fourteen years now. When we first met, she was about to go on a retreat with you — you were visiting Madison — one of her first retreats. You’ve been a huge influence in her life. Over lunch I said, I’m going to be talking to Sharon, what would you ask? And she said something that’s so true, something I’ve heard from many people and know from my own experience: you talk so candidly about your own experience, and the human experience, in a way that’s quite uncommon. Just being fully human and sharing your experience. Because it’s so easy to see someone at the front of the room teaching meditation and imagine, wow, they’ve got it all figured out, this perfect life — and here I am, a distracted, anxious mess.

I think that’s one of the reasons your teachings resonate so deeply. With all these decades of working directly with people, hearing from thousands of them, what are the things that either trip us up — the common stumbling blocks early on — or the things that inspire and unlock us when we hear the right thing at the right time?

(09:35) What actually trips people up

Sharon Salzberg

Well, I think we — including myself — bring some of our greatest patterns into the meditative process. Especially a kind of harsh self-criticism, which I’ve seen over and over. Even people in really difficult situations, really hard diagnoses, something hard to bear. Sometimes I listen and think, give yourself a break — this is hard, look what you’re going through. That’s one of the reasons I found loving-kindness practice, and the understanding that we can grow in other ways rather than punishing ourselves for our mistakes. We can move on. We can learn to begin again. There’s resilience there. I’ve found that a huge help for a lot of people.

Somebody asked me the other day whether I wanted to teach Buddhism or better mental health. And I said, mental health is not that high right now. So many people feel broken and lonely and estranged and confused. Of course we always do to some degree, but it feels so exaggerated now, so emphasized. For people to have a sense of not being so alone, and caring about themselves and about one another, having a greater sense of community — that seems to be what we can offer these days.

Cort Dahl

That’s so helpful. Richie, any thoughts from you, having explored the same territory yourself, both personally and in your work?

Richie Davidson

In terms of the situation today, it really is true. I often say we’re all part of a grand experiment for which none of us have provided our informed consent. It’s a challenging time, and a lot of it is simply outside of our control. The one thing we have at least the possibility of exerting a little more control over is our own mind. So that’s a great place to start.

One of the things I love about your work, Sharon, and would love to hear more about, is that — at least I’ve found, being with different kinds of public audiences — giving them a simple taste of very ordinary but really nourishing connection, like a little hit of appreciation. Bring someone into your mind and your heart who’s been helpful to you, and just observe what happens. Being able to taste that little hit is really an elixir for the soul. And it’s very accessible. We don’t have to go to any special place or be in any special posture. We can do it anywhere, anytime — a phrase Mingyur Rinpoche uses for one of his programs. I’ve renamed it, everywhere, all the time, why not. I’d love to hear your reflections.

(13:33) Why Sharon prefers the word “connection”

Sharon Salzberg

There are many layers I want to respond to. One is that I’ve so appreciated your work and your use of the word connection. I’ve been struggling to translate metta, the Pali word for loving-kindness, because loving-kindness is such an odd term. You wouldn’t necessarily be in a coffee shop and hear the people at the next table talking about loving-kindness, except maybe in a hyper-religious context. My concern is that it makes the quality seem somewhat arcane and removed from day-to-day life, precious in the negative sense.

Translators and scholars have said to me, stop being so cutesy, just say love — that’s what you mean. And that of course is a complicated term. What do we mean when we say love? How often is it a medium of exchange, or, I’ll love myself as long as I never make a mistake — something so fragile and breakable. My favorite translation is connection. There’s a classical translation as friendship, but my concern with friendship is that the development of qualities like loving-kindness or compassion doesn’t mandate a certain kind of action. When I think of friendship, I think, let’s go to the movies, let’s spend time together. And it may be that your heart is genuinely full of loving-kindness or compassion for someone, and discernment, wisdom, understanding is saying, don’t go there — it’s not safe, or it’s not appropriate. There’s such a great fear that if I develop more metta, more loving-kindness, I’ll have to say yes, I have to smile, I have to give in. And we don’t have to do anything. So I really prefer the word connection to any other word.

I love the idea of appreciation, just for a moment. It’s part of what I like to teach if I’m going into a company or an organization. There are two reflections. One is, can you express appreciation to somebody, anybody? Because we’re also culturally tuned to feel we’ll feel better about ourselves if we can put other people down — a kind of culture of degradation.

Richie Davidson

And that’s particularly true in the university, by the way.

Sharon Salzberg

That’s scary and sad. People get into that, and there’s a lot of loneliness right there — hyper-competitive, constantly putting other people down. So I see all of Dharma practice as an experiment. Are you willing to step out of those familiar ruts — go into work and express some appreciation for somebody? The other reflection is interconnection. My favorite question in a group of people who work together: how many other people have to do their job well for you to do your job well? Sometimes that doesn’t resonate, so I say, do you commute? Do you ever think about the bus driver, the engineer, the car mechanic? And if you don’t commute, there’s certainly some technology involved. And if that doesn’t resonate — have you eaten today? You don’t grow all your own food. Just think about that: our lives, truly, realistically, are part of a network. We can feel so alone and cut off, but the truth is we’re connected. So let’s make an experiment, do these reflections, and see what happens.

Cort Dahl

I realize I skipped a step that Richie and I do every single time. Usually before we hit record, we do a little practice to set our motivation — to be of benefit, wanting whatever comes of the work to help people. Richie talked about having a little taste. Sharon, would you be willing to lead a little practice, just to give us an experiential taste of what we’re talking about, and then we can keep going?

(18:30) A guided reflection

Sharon Salzberg

Sure. I’ll do a reflection based on what I just said. You can sit comfortably, close your eyes or not, however you feel most at ease. We’re just going to spend a few moments bringing to mind anyone who has somehow had a role in your being here right now. Somebody told you about their meditation practice, or the science, or this podcast. Somebody read you a poem or played you a piece of music. There was some opening somewhere. Maybe you’ve never met these people who come to mind. Maybe you were inspired from afar. Just see who comes up.

Every time I do this reflection, I think about the Board of Regents of the State of New York, which gave me a scholarship, which was how I was able to go to college, which is how I ended up in India as an independent study project, which is a big reason I’m here now.

Sometimes I do this reflection and think about those people whose actions have really hurt me — not the ones I just found annoying, but the times I felt I was at an edge and had to find a different way to live or think. Because they’re part of why I’m here right now too.

Just who comes to mind.

And you can extend a sense of recognition to all of these different beings, because this moment in time is a confluence of connection, relationship, influence, interaction. However alone we sometimes feel or cut off, this is the truth of our experience.

And you can open your eyes, or lift your gaze, and we can end that reflection.

(21:26) Vulnerability, and the neutral person

Cort Dahl

So beautiful. Thank you, Sharon. When I first started these practices, I’d been doing mindfulness for probably seven or eight years. Then I encountered some teachers, and for me the first practice more in this heart-connection space was sending and taking, often referred to as tonglen, very much in the space of loving-kindness and compassion. It was very interesting what it did. One of the first things I noticed was that it brought up an intense feeling of vulnerability. The way it manifested was, I’d be having a conversation with somebody, and out of the blue I’d start blushing. And I come from a long line of Olympic-level blushers — Scandinavian complexion, maybe. It’s very visible, there’s no hiding. This went on for months. Almost every interaction, for no reason at all, I’d feel this naked vulnerability. And it was just connecting with people, actually. I didn’t see it at all until that moment. But when I started these practices, I started to see how guarded I was a lot of the time — a weird protective mechanism I hadn’t even been aware of. That feeling of vulnerability, which weirdly manifested as blushing, was just genuine connection with people, but in a raw way I wasn’t used to. It was actually hard. Not easy for me. Inspiring, and I was seeing things about myself I hadn’t seen before, but challenging territory, and totally unexpected. So I’m wondering if you could talk about vulnerability, and the power of working with it in practice despite the discomfort.

Sharon Salzberg

It’s a really fascinating thing to explore — the components. I don’t know that this was your experience at all, but it’s common for people to feel somehow responsible for fixing a situation if someone else is expressing pain. Not only do we feel it with the kind of sensitivity you’re describing, but it enters us in some strange way, things get distorted, and we get this hyper-sense of responsibility — I’ve got to fix it. We’d call that a real imbalance. Maybe there’s a lot more compassion for someone else than there is for us, or maybe there’s not enough wisdom for correct boundaries or discernment. The combination of the sensitivity with the wisdom, we’d call equanimity. It’s a kind of balance.

We are conditioned, by and large, to look the other way in terms of other people’s situations. And my favorite part of loving-kindness practice, actually, is loving-kindness for a neutral person — someone we don’t especially like or dislike, someone we feel kind of neutral toward. Usually people pick somebody like the checkout person at the grocery store, someone they see but have no real sense of connection to. I love it, because over time, here’s someone we usually objectify, overlook, look through instead of look at — and as we do the practice, offering them attention, may you be happy, may you be peaceful, something actually grows inside us. People come back with incredible stories. Like, I fell in love with my dry cleaner. I said to this woman — well, I didn’t say it, she could see it on my face — I thought they were dating. And she said, no, no, not romantically. He’s my neutral person in my practice. Every day I call him to mind and wish him well. And now I go into the store and it’s like we’re on the same team. So you’re also confronting all that conditioning of, look the other way, they’re not really people, they’re just utilities — not to mention bias or prejudice, which fits in there too, the other who doesn’t count. The more we tune into people and realize they do count, that we’re part of this whole, we’ll have the effect of that. But that effect needs to be balanced.

Richie Davidson

The piece about neutral people is so powerful. One of the greatest teachings for me has been being with the Dalai Lama at major formal events, where there are, quote, lots of important people around. And then he’ll go out through a side entrance, and he’ll stop and greet all the custodians, all the kitchen people, the security people, and he treats them exactly the same as the important people. Absolutely no difference whatsoever. When you see that in practice — when you see him stopping and holding them and asking how they’re doing — it’s such a powerful reminder that this really is accessible, and it can totally change our life. Our everyday life becomes all of these really nourishing moments of connection.

(28:10) Attention, and what the science shows

Sharon Salzberg

You’re reminding me that so many times we can understand connection, or loving-kindness, or compassion, as an emergent property of paying attention. If we’re more present and listening, that’s where the connection is born — which is a nicer way of realizing it, rather than thinking I’ve got to drum up some feeling I don’t really have, and manufacture it.

Cort Dahl

That’s what stands out to me about the story of you on the crutches — it wasn’t as though he’d memorized some rulebook of elevated compassion. He was totally tuned in to what was going on in the moment, and who was in front of him. And conversely, the vulnerability I felt was seeing how many of my interactions are governed by a script — this is what I say or do in this situation — rather than being fully there, authentic and spontaneous. There was something in that Dalai Lama story that felt like that spontaneity of really being there and seeing what’s actually happening. You don’t have to have some feeling or thought or impulse; it’s just a natural response, because you’re fully tuned in. It’s so beautiful. But getting there, from where a lot of us live, is kind of awkward, honestly. We’re relearning how to be human and connected without that rawness where we feel threatened or awkward.

Sharon Salzberg

That’s another reason it’s reassuring to have a sense of community. You’re not the only one making this experiment. And I’m curious — do you still blush, or is that over?

Cort Dahl

Occasionally I do. One of the few times I blush these days is actually when I tell that story. But it was a great practice, because it went on for months and was so inescapable. It was very clear: I could either go lock myself in my room and isolate, which clearly wasn’t healthy, or I was going to have to apply the practice I was learning. It was two things. One was to allow myself to feel what I was feeling, and, as you said, go easy on myself — I’d had a lot of social anxiety and thought I was past it, and then here it was again. So, not beating myself up, and really just feeling it fully. And then staying in that space of connection where the vulnerability was almost a practice of staying in the rawness of it — being human, being my messy self, and not having to fix anything. That was the practice, rather than, I will transcend this and no longer feel it. It was, no, okay, maybe this is the rest of my life, I’m just going to have this. So it was less about whether I blush anymore and more a comfort with the whole cascade — okay, I can let this play out, and it’s fine. But that took practice. The universe gave me a lot of opportunities.

I wonder if we could shift gears a little. You wrote Loving-Kindness and started teaching this back in the nineties, when mindfulness wasn’t even a thing yet — it became the big thing decades later. This was a pretty new practice coming into the more secular meditation world, and even in Buddhist circles it wasn’t nearly as well known as it is now. For a lot of traditions, it feels like there’s a sequence — you start with awareness or mindfulness practices, then move on to these. Richie, maybe you could tee this up, since it’s also a scientific question.

Richie Davidson

Sure, and thank you for teeing it up, Cort. Some of this emerged in the context of the book Danny Goleman and I wrote, Altered Traits, published in 2017. When we wrote it, we reviewed the scientific literature on meditation. There were, and still are, many more studies on mindfulness-type practices than on loving-kindness and compassion practices, but a scientific literature was beginning — and Sharon, I know you yourself have contributed to that, in work you’ve done with various scientists. One of the things we observed was that there was evidence of benefits measured with very short periods of practice. And it seemed then, and I believe it’s still the case, that on a variety of standardized measures — some of which you might think of as objective measures, meaning they don’t depend on a person’s own self-report — benefits emerge with loving-kindness and compassion practices pretty quickly. At least there’s some evidence for that.

In the work Cort and I have been doing, in developing our Healthy Minds Program, which includes practices of awareness as well as connection and others, one of the things we notice is that some people prefer to start with connection. In the standard sequence, as Cort mentioned, we typically invite people to do awareness or mindfulness practices first. And the last piece — then I’ll stop and love to hear your thoughts — is just to acknowledge that one size does not fit all. There are many different paths, and it’s probably a bit of hubris to think there’s a single path that’s best for everyone. So I wonder what your thoughts are, given the range of your teaching experience — if there are essential insights you can share.

(36:26) The obstacles, and where to start

Sharon Salzberg

I often think one of the greatest obstacles to practicing loving-kindness — and I teach it in a pretty classical way, repeating phrases, making that offering to yourself and to others — is even believing it’s not stupid. Having some sense that it’s a powerful way of being, rather than the doormat endlessly smiling at nothing. That’s a particularly Western problem, I’ve found — people think it’s a gift: you’ve either got it or you don’t, and if you don’t, you’re out of luck. Whereas in the East it certainly can be trained, because it’s an emergent property of how we pay attention, and we know attention can be trained. That’s exactly what meditation practice does. If people don’t get stuck on those issues, many find it an easier practice to begin with. It’s meaningful, it’s opening, and it’s often easier to concentrate — the breath can be a bit of a soporific and then you’re asleep, but here you’re making an offering, there’s imagery, something very alive about that sense of connection. People may come from a faith tradition that has the principles, if not the practices, embedded in it, so it feels like coming home to something precious. And they say the Buddha taught it as the antidote to fear. As a remedy for anxiety, it’s the exact parallel for our time, which is a pretty anxious time. So I’ve found many people do find it easier, if they can only trust it.

Cort Dahl

Do you have a sense of the easiest entry point? These days there’s a lot of talk about self-compassion, and it’s even, I wouldn’t say controversial, but in more traditional formulations sometimes it’s not a thing at all. In the Tibetan tradition you go to a loved one, a neutral person, difficult people, all beings — and you sort of bypass the self. And these days so many of us have so much self-hatred or fear toward ourselves. In all your years teaching, what have you found to be the easiest entry point for people just getting going, if this is new territory?

Sharon Salzberg

Funny that you say that about neutral people. I’ve always wondered about the social etiquette of telling somebody after a retreat, you were my neutral person — I found you totally neutral, really kind of indifferent to you. Anyway. Some of it is a sense of — which is hard if you’re teaching via an app, reaching a large number of people — sensing the person, and also receiving feedback. I was once doing a program with Barbara Fredrickson, who had done research into loving-kindness meditation. We were on stage, and she said she felt it was very important for people within a couple of weeks to have some sense of the effect of the practice, or they’d get too discouraged and stop. And she said it’s especially hard because you start with yourself — which, in the Burmese or Theravada tradition, you do; you start with the offering of loving-kindness to yourself, then move on to someone who’s helped you. And she said it’s especially hard because you start with yourself, and that’s so hard for so many people. So I said, why don’t you change the order? Just change the order. And she said she felt at the time — though I know she’s changed her mind since — that she couldn’t, because of scientific research needs for things to be in the same sequence. I realized at that point we had two different goals. I’d change the order in ten seconds if someone was in front of me and it was too much of a struggle. You do start classically with yourself, offering loving-kindness to yourself, but you don’t have to.

I find there are problems all along the way, truly. It takes a sense of investigation and experimentation, and not feeling so alone in your practice. People have said to me, I don’t have any benefactors — that’s the classical term for those who’ve helped us — I don’t have anybody. Somebody said, I had an unprotected childhood, I’ve never had people on my side. And you think, well, that’s a problem too. Even though we say, just move to the benefactor, it’ll be all shiny and you’ll feel there’s love in the universe — not always. So it’s a process of figuring out where that entry point is. As a growth experiment, it takes time and repetition. And the openings, which are genuine and real and liberating, may not be evidenced in your formal meditation practice. They’re shown in your life, which is where it counts — because that’s where we actually need it, but we don’t always think to look there. People think, I still don’t have these great waves of loving feeling. And it really doesn’t matter, because when we’re interacting with a stranger, or we’ve made a mistake and see how we speak to ourselves, we start to see the shadings of difference. That takes great patience too. How do you know if it’s working? It depends on where you look to see the effect.

It’s a practice that isn’t formulaic, even though you’re repeating phrases. It’s very creative. The principle I was taught when I did it intensively in Burma was that it needs to be done in the easiest way possible. And that’s hard. If it’s too hard to offer loving-kindness to yourself, move on to someone else. There’s another category in the sequence, over time — a difficult person. And it’s said to best be a mildly difficult person, not the person at first, not the one who’s harmed us horrifically or behaved so terribly on the world stage — that’s nearly impossible. Start with someone who’s just a little bit of unease, and over time move on. But I’ve found this is often a place — it certainly was in me — where people don’t like it. They say, don’t you think I can do the real thing? Why, do you think I’m a coward? What about this horrible person? That tendency to do something in the hardest way possible doesn’t really fit this approach. So that’s a whole concept of learning as well.

Cort Dahl

I love the playful experimentation. That’s the challenge — you read a book or hear a teaching, it’s presented in some way, and there’s a sense of, I should fit myself into that progression. What you’re saying, which I can see — not necessarily in the way the Tibetan approach is presented, but you can intuit how it evolved — is that they found something that worked for them culturally. In Tibet, the way it’s often presented, they start with a loved one, and specifically your mother. In Tibet, mothers are like deities, revered like no other culture I’ve seen. So it makes perfect sense to start there — there’s a natural sense of gratitude and connection and nurturing. And of course, whatever you want to say about other cultures, certainly here in the US we have some complexity in our experiences with our parents. I think that’s the first thing the Tibetans learned — that people aren’t responding in that intuitive way. But what you’re saying is, you look for the in, the connection point. Where is it easy? Where is it natural? And you nurture that. Where can you get the spark? If it’s not happening, you don’t just keep doing something that’s clearly not working. Once you have the spark, you keep it alive and extend it to something gradually more challenging. Most of us hear a teaching and think, that’s the right way, now I need to do it that way, and if it’s not working, somehow it’s my fault. It’s not easy. Richie, do you remember your early experiences with these practices, and what resonated with you?

(46:46) Little rituals, and eating as practice

Richie Davidson

First, I think this last bit of conversation is so important — this theme of not fighting with your mind, approaching it with curiosity and openness, and exploring what might be the natural opening, the natural door you can go through. It’s not going to be the same for each person, and that’s fine. That’s the nature of being human. We’re different. I really love that, and it resonates deeply with the approach we often take.

For me, when I first discovered these practices of loving-kindness and compassion — I’m just naturally a touchy-feely guy, and I needed this. I needed my heart to be nourished.

Cort Dahl

For the record, that is an understatement. In the best possible way.

Richie Davidson

So it was really important to me. One of the things that’s been such a blessing is developing little rituals I bring to my everyday life, where these practices are so much a part of what I do every day. From making tea in the morning for my wife, to — when we had cats; our kitty recently passed away, so it’s no longer a ritual — but I used to scoop the cat litter every night and do it as a practice. It’s just a little shift of mindset, and what might ordinarily be a yucky chore became something I actually looked forward to. It was beautiful — done as an offering, an appreciation.

You alluded to this earlier, Sharon. One of the things we humans do pretty much every day is eat. And it doesn’t take much reflection to recognize how unbelievably interdependent we are. To get food on our plate requires this extraordinary village. That sense of appreciation for interdependence — we talk about this in our book; there’s a chapter on developing daily habits by piggybacking them onto activities of daily living, like eating. To use a bit of psychological jargon that conveys something important — the term is affordance. Eating is an affordance for the expression of appreciation and the recognition of interdependence. The very moment you’re sitting down to eat, it automatically arises. And being able to do this in your everyday life, a few times a day, every day — it changes you. It’s why we’ve come to the view, and we actually have evidence now to support this, that it’s easier than you think. It doesn’t take much to get these circuits of the mind going, or circuits of the heart, because this is who we are. This is our nature. We’re just recognizing it.

Sharon Salzberg

It’s beautiful. One of my students, to my eternal amusement, coined the phrase micro-dosing loving-kindness — for exactly that. You sit down to a meal and spend a few moments. Or I have a friend who looks at all the little faces in the boxes of a Zoom meeting and thinks, may you be happy. You have to be silent in a lot of those circumstances, but you make that offering, and then you start the meeting.

(52:00) Parting thoughts

Cort Dahl

I can’t believe we’re already at the end of our time. It feels like we could go for a few more hours. Maybe to end — if you have any parting thoughts. To state the obvious, we’re in an era pervaded by a feeling of division and a lack of connection. We might have connection with our close circle, but so much division outside of that. Any parting thoughts, individually or collectively, on how we can bring more of this into our lives, wherever we are on the path?

Sharon Salzberg

I love what Richie was just saying. We can do it, and we don’t have to think of it as this monumental task. It’s just, okay, this meal, this moment. It really makes a difference.

Cort Dahl

On that note, we’ll end with a note of gratitude to you, Sharon, for all the incredible work, the tireless effort to share these practices and ideas with so many people. I know it’s made a huge impact on our lives, even our scientific work, and on so many others. It’s been an honor to have you on for this conversation. I’m truly grateful for everything you’ve done and continue to do.

Sharon Salzberg

Well, thank you so much.

Richie Davidson

Deep bows, deep bows. One of the things we didn’t mention is that Sharon taught the very first meditation retreat for scientists at IMS, sponsored by Mind and Life. That was a pivotal moment for sharing these practices with the scientific community. I’m just so grateful for your dedication, and your indefatigable effort to bring the Dharma to the West. So thank you.

Sharon Salzberg

Thank you. Thank you both.

Cortland Dahl

To be continued. We hope to have you on again sometime. Thank you, Sharon.

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The Superpowers in Your Brain’s Wiring with Dr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl (DL #35)

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Thu, 25 Jun 2026 11:00:00 GMT

Dr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl explore how stable differences in brain activity may shape personality and the ways we engage with the world. They discuss introversion, anxiety, approach and withdrawal styles, what meditation can change without erasing our natural dispositions, and how meta-awareness can help us find the strengths in our own brain style.

This is the third part in a series on Brain Asymmetry:

Part 1: Your Brain Is A Storyteller

Part 2: The Left Brain / Right Brain Myth

Part 3: The Superpowers in Your Brain's Wiring

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Boredom is Where You Meet Your Mind; DL Ep.34 with Dr. Richie Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Thu, 11 Jun 2026 11:00:00 GMT

We now live in a world where boredom is almost optional. The moment there is a gap in the day, we can reach for a device and instantly distract ourselves.

In this episode of Dharma Lab, Dr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl explore boredom and restlessness from both a scientific and contemplative perspective. Richie explains why boredom often brings us face to face with the “default mode” of the brain, the self-referential narrative we carry around about who we are. Cort reflects on the physical, restless energy of boredom, and how meditation can turn that discomfort into an object of curiosity. They also offer a simple and powerful tool to bring more awareness into our day: the next time we feel the urge to escape boredom, we can pause, notice the urge, and let that moment become a practice.

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Episode Companion Flashcards!

In this episode

00:00:00 – Have we lost the ability to be bored?00:00:58 – Why boredom matters00:01:21 – “I could not sit still”00:03:34 – Boredom and comfort with our own mind00:04:19 – The default mode network00:05:01 – Why awareness can feel uncomfortable at first00:06:52 – The body’s role in restlessness00:08:36 – Richie’s childhood outlet: the bicycle00:11:12 – Why kids need to move00:12:15 – Meditation as training for boredom00:13:19 – Phones as an escape from discomfort00:14:41 – The everyday practice of not checking your phone00:16:25 – Turning the urge into a cue for awareness00:18:44 – What does boredom actually feel like?00:20:21 – Who is actually bored?00:22:03 – Turning ordinary waiting into practice

Written transcript for those who prefer to read

00:00:00 – Have we lost the ability to be bored?

Cortland Dahl:We’re now living in a world where we just have such an easy escape hatch. We carry around these devices, and it’s so easy to distract ourselves that I feel like we’ve almost developed an incapacity to be bored.

Richie Davidson:Our response to boredom, our relationship to boredom, has a lot to do with our comfort with our own mind. One of the things about boredom is that we tend to get bored when there’s not stuff for us to do. And when there’s not stuff for us to do, we are confronted inevitably by our own mind.

00:00:58 – Why boredom matters

Cortland:Hello everyone. Welcome to Dharma Lab. I’m here with my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Richard Davidson, one of the world’s eminent neuroscientists, and I’m Cortland Dahl.

Today we’re going to talk about something I think probably everybody experiences, and maybe experiences a lot, which is boredom and restlessness.

00:01:21 – “I could not sit still”

Cortland:I have such vivid memories of this. If we had a normal distribution of where people fall and how easily bored they are, I’m pretty sure I would have been an outlier. I was so easily bored as a kid. I was one of those kids who just could not sit still.

I have vivid memories, especially of summer afternoons, sitting at home and desperately trying to call my friends to see if anybody wanted to hang out. There was nothing on TV. This was back in the days before you could get everything on demand, just boring daytime TV shows.

And I remember this feeling of crawling out of my skin. I literally could not sit there. We had no mobile phones. This was long before the iPhone and smartphones. But I would have done anything to have had something like that.

Now it’s kind of amazing. After years of meditation, I would say if one thing has changed in my life, it’s my relationship to boredom. I kind of feel like I’m immune to boredom now. There’s a whole long practice history with that.

But I thought we could start by talking about boredom because we’re now living in a world where we have such an easy escape hatch. We carry around these devices, and it’s so easy to distract ourselves that I feel like we’ve almost developed an incapacity to be bored, to just sit with that.

So maybe we could talk about it from a scientific perspective. We can both share our personal experiences. But let me kick it over to you, Richie, and see if you have any opening thoughts. Then we can dive into it more deeply.

00:03:34 – Boredom and comfort with our own mind

Richie:I think boredom is an interesting topic.

Cortland:It is. That’s the weird thing. It’s strangely interesting. Boredom is not boring.

Richie:Yeah, it is strangely interesting.

I think it’s a phenomenon that has been deeply impacted by changes in the fabric of our society, by the development of technology and so forth.

And I think boredom, our response to boredom, our relationship to boredom, has a lot to do with our comfort with our own mind.

One of the things about boredom is that we tend to get bored when there’s not stuff for us to do. And when there’s not stuff for us to do, we are confronted inevitably by our own mind. That is the one thing we can’t get rid of.

People try, with drugs and other ways to dull the mind, but under most circumstances we have our minds.

00:04:19 – The default mode network

Richie:From a neuroscientific perspective, we know that when a person is not engaged in a demanding activity that really requires their mental resources, what is active is a mode of brain function that we call the default mode.

The default mode is mostly associated with self-referential thought. By self-referential thought, we mean the narrative we tell ourselves about who we are and all the things associated with that.

And for a lot of people, that’s uncomfortable.

00:05:01 – Why awareness can feel uncomfortable at first

Richie:We have data from work we’ve done using our Healthy Minds program with beginning meditators who’ve never meditated before. We often see that after the first week or so of cultivating awareness, they actually become more anxious. They report more anxiety.

We think it’s not that they’re actually experiencing more anxiety, but that they’re noticing what’s going on in their mind. And what’s going on in their mind is often quite chaotic.

Simply becoming more aware of it makes them more anxious, or they perceive their anxiety more accurately for the first time. And so they report higher scores more accurately.

So I think one of the reasons people try to find strategies to get rid of boredom is because the chaotic nature of their own mind is uncomfortable.

I actually think this is why people engage in certain kinds of leisure activities that are cognitively demanding, but that don’t serve any other function other than being interesting leisure activities. For example, doing crossword puzzles or Sudoku.

There are a lot of people who spend a lot of time doing those things, and people report that they enjoy it. I think they enjoy it because it temporarily blocks the default mode. It temporarily engages other parts of their mind, so they’re not aware of the self-referential activity. They’re not aware of the narrative going on in the background.

00:06:52 – The body’s role in restlessness

Cortland:I’m curious about one thing I’d love to unpack from a scientific point of view: the relationship between these brain networks, specifically the default mode network that you talked about, and the rest of the nervous system.

If I think back to my teenage self sitting on the couch, which to me is the most intensely bored I can remember feeling in my life, I think at that time I was completely oblivious to what was going on in my mind.

When I remember that, I don’t remember the thought activity. Now, having meditated, I’m sure it was going on, but I just didn’t know how to attend to what was going on in my mind.

But what I do remember is the physicality. There was almost this charge of restless energy. I needed to release the energy, and it just had nowhere to go. You’re kind of just this ball of energy, and yet it’s like you’re trying to constrain a ball of energy that’s trying to get out, but there’s no release for it.

I’m imagining there are all sorts of things going on in the brain and the nervous system. It points to the relationship between thought activity, which can be completely subterranean at times. We’re not even really aware of all the thought activity, and yet it can have this bidirectional relationship with emotional experiences and physical experiences.

I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit too, because I think the felt experience of boredom is often a very physical experience.

00:08:36 – Richie’s childhood outlet: the bicycle

Richie:Yeah, that’s so interesting.

When I think back to my childhood, during those periods I got on my bicycle.

Cortland:That’s what I should have done, probably.

Richie:I developed a lifelong habit, which I still have, of riding my bicycle.

I grew up in New York City, in Brooklyn, and for me my bicycle was liberating. I rode all over Brooklyn. I rode over the Brooklyn Bridge to Manhattan all the time. This was before I had permission to go on the subway by myself, but I could go on my bicycle. My parents didn’t really know where I was, and I just went. I explored all over.

That was important for me. I also felt a kind of somatic restlessness, but I was able to deal with it through physical activity.

00:09:38 – Restlessness, the body, and the brain

Richie:Getting back to the essence of your question, I think it is certainly the case, and we’re learning more and more about this now, that there is bidirectional communication between the brain and the body.

We know there are certain networks in the brain that communicate with the body. Activity in the brain will be expressed in part through the body, through changes in both the autonomic nervous system and the skeletal muscular system, through muscle tension and things of that sort.

One of the signs of anxiety is increased muscle tension, and you can measure that with electromyography. It’s a way to measure the electrical activity of muscles noninvasively, in the same way we measure the electrical activity of the brain. We can put sensors on muscles in different parts of the body, and there is indeed activation in these muscles associated with anxiety.

When we’re bored, I think we notice this muscle activity more because there is no competing demand for our mind. Our awareness might be pulled to the places where the signal is strongest. And there may be a lot of signal in the body.

00:11:12 – Why kids need to move

Richie:I think particularly for boys growing up, it never made sense to me that kids were expected to sit at desks for the majority of the day in school. It just seems so inconsistent.

Cortland:Yeah. It’s like a recipe. It’s like a boredom inducement, as though you were designing a system to make kids restless.

Richie:Right. Designing a system that seems inconsistent with their developmental stage. They need to move.

Cortland:It certainly was for me. It was like torture having to sit for hours on end and not move.

Richie:So I think that also plays into this.

When we begin to notice our body, it’s kind of the somatic parallel to noticing the chaotic nature of our mind. You were saying that you didn’t really notice a lot of anxious thoughts, but you did feel a lot of pent-up activity in your body.

I think for young kids, the somatic representation is particularly important.

00:12:15 – Meditation as training for boredom

Cortland:Yeah, and it’s a great entry point too, because from a practice point of view, what do you do with that? What would be the inner skill set to shift that dynamic and work with it in a more healthy way?

A lot of it, I think, is the physicality and the somatic aspect of it. So maybe we could talk about how each of us has practiced with this.

One of the gifts of meditation practice is that I think it’s almost impossible to have a meditation practice in which you don’t have to really grapple with boredom. You’re literally sitting doing nothing for long periods of time. That is basically what you’re doing.

Sleepiness and lethargy are strangely painful when you really can’t escape them. Anybody who experiences jet lag knows that well. It’s almost physically painful when you’re exhausted, and yet there’s nowhere to go and nothing to do with it.

Boredom is similar when there’s no escape hatch, so to speak.

00:13:19 – Phones as an escape from discomfort

Cortland:I noticed there’s a Gen Z meme going around. Younger generations these days have grown up with devices in their hands and have very little experience sitting with the discomfort of boredom. Equally, we could have a whole other topic on social discomfort. The fact that you can look at your phone is also an escape hatch for social discomfort.

In a way, it makes us less resilient because you don’t have to deal with that discomfort. Therefore, when it happens, you’re almost unprepared. You haven’t developed the muscle memory to do that.

But with boredom specifically, there’s this meme. I won’t use the term because it’s quite profane, but basically it’s just sitting and doing nothing. Put your phone down and just sit there. There’s discussion about the benefits of doing that as unfamiliar territory.

For us growing up, we had no choice but to sit and do nothing at times. But it’s interesting that there’s a recognition that unplugging and dealing with the discomfort of not being plugged in all the time is actually pretty helpful and important.

Let’s each share our practice experience with this. What have you found helpful, and how have you worked with that?

00:14:41 – The everyday practice of not checking your phone

Richie:Just riffing off what you said, Cort, there are times, and this happens virtually every day for me, when I might be waiting in line. I could be waiting to get coffee somewhere, or waiting for my wife when we’re going out together. Maybe I go downstairs and I’m just waiting a few minutes.

I’ll notice that I have a period, maybe as short as two or three minutes, where there’s nothing scheduled. I feel the urge to take out my phone.

And I notice the urge. I just say, “Okay, I’m not going to take out my phone. I’m just going to sit here and be aware. I’ll be aware of the urge. I’ll be aware of my body.”

I might be able to go outside and feel the fresh air and just enjoy this few minutes of awareness.

It’s an intentional choice. I have at least a couple of those every single day where I notice, during an interstitial period where there’s nothing and I’m just waiting for something, that there’s an urge to pull out the phone because that’s what we do during these times in our modern society.

And I make an intentional choice to let it stay in my pocket.

It’s gotten to the point where it’s a little moment of celebration that I still have enough residual self-control to resist this, and then enjoy that moment of awareness.

00:16:25 – Turning the urge into a cue for awareness

Cortland:It’s very similar with me, to the point where it has become clear that you can actually train yourself so that the impulse and the urge spark awareness.

For me, awareness is the go-to practice. It’s the easiest entry point. It’s almost like you rewire yourself so that you feel that urge, and then immediately on the heels of that, it’s like, “Oh, I don’t have to. That’s not a fulfilling experience. I know what it feels like to always do that, and I’m going to do something else.”

Another thing I do is almost like a preemptive strike on the habit. Knowing there are certain times when that tends to happen, I intentionally leave my phone somewhere else.

When the space opens up, I don’t even have it next to me. I would literally have to go to a different room. The example I’ve given many times is the urge to pick it up first thing in the morning or to look at my phone when I go to bed.

I made a decision to leave my phone in my office. Often, when I finish work before dinner, I put my phone on its stand in my office, which is a room I don’t usually go into after dinner. Then it’s not even in my orbit.

I still notice those urges. It’s kind of like, “Where’s my phone?” And then I remember it’s in the office. I’m certainly not going to get up and go somewhere just for that purpose alone.

00:18:09 – Breathing with restless energy

Cortland:There are two things I’ve found really helpful in terms of what to do in that space.

One is using the breath as a support for awareness. Mindful breathing has always been part of my practice since my early days as a meditator. With that kind of restless energy, sometimes I’ll just take a few deep breaths and it settles the mind. That’s really helpful.

Sometimes I love to pay attention to the restless energy itself, the energy of the urge, the energy of the impulse, and not even try to change it or dampen it.

00:18:44 – What does boredom actually feel like?

Cortland:As we started with, boredom is kind of interesting as an experience. It’s painful when we’re trying to avoid it. The pain is the impulse to escape the discomfort. But when you ask, “What actually is boredom? Where do you feel boredom?” it changes.

I can tell you exactly where I feel boredom. It feels like a buzzing energy. Then I notice it’s almost like a movement impulse. There’s something that feels like my premotor cortex is firing. It’s almost this feeling of, “I need to move in some way.” But it’s like the precursor to movement. It’s the impulse to move.

You can almost feel the body mobilizing. But somehow you’re not in a situation where you’re going to open the door and run down the street. It’s a mismatch between the context and the impulse to move. And that mismatch creates this weird discomfort, at least in my own experience.

When I pay attention to it, it’s weird because it’s the feeling of boredom, but the mind is interested.

Usually you would think those are mutually exclusive. You can’t feel bored and be interested. One is the absence of the other. But I can tell you, you can very much experience them at the same time. Maybe it ceases to be boredom at that time, but some elements are still there. It’s like the residue of boredom is still there, but you’re fascinated by it.

It’s very interesting when you look at it.

00:20:21 – Who is actually bored?

Richie:I think the somatic residue is still there, but you change the mindset. You can also examine: who is it that’s feeling this boredom? That can be very helpful too.

Cortland:Totally. That one I do in retreat every time there’s a hint of boredom. That’s my go-to practice.

Often it’s almost like: what is boredom, and who’s experiencing it?

Then I feel like I don’t find anything. It’s there one moment, and the moment I look, it’s like, “Where did that go?” It has a totally different effect. It seems like it’s there, and then it’s just ethereal. Suddenly it’s like, poof, somehow it changes.

Richie:I experience that when I’m actually sitting meditating. If I have boredom, or something very similar with sleepiness, just really looking at it with curiosity, “Who is actually sleepy?” Then it changes without trying to fix it.

It’s not like I’m trying to get rid of sleepiness. No, I’m really interested in: what is sleepiness? How does it feel?

00:22:03 – Turning ordinary waiting into practice

Cortland:Okay, that’s it. We need to put a pin in sleepiness. We need to do an episode on sleepiness too, because that is another one that is so painful when you’re trying to avoid it.

As a meditator, it’s really painful to avoid sleepiness. It becomes a subtle spiral where you’re trying to avoid something you’re feeling, and it’s hard to get out of it. But when you turn toward it, it’s fascinating.

Boredom is the same.

I think we talked about awareness, and this last point is more of an insight practice. It’s getting curious and digging into either “What is boredom?” by unpacking the different dimensions of it, or, as you’re saying, Richie, “Who is it that’s experiencing this?”

This gets into a very Buddhist deconstruction of the self, which is incredibly interesting and powerful. It completely turns the table on boredom. Suddenly it’s fascinating.

You can use these little moments when you’re waiting for a cup of coffee, or you’re stuck somewhere, or you’re waiting for your friend or partner to go somewhere. There are just two minutes, and you’re sitting there. Suddenly all those moments become interesting and meaningful, rather than something you need to escape.

It becomes kind of a beautiful thing in life.

Any final thoughts before we sign off on this one?

Richie:I think we covered this in a nice way. Thank you.

Cortland:All right. To everyone watching, if you have not tried this for yourself, this may be less interesting theoretically, but super interesting experientially if you actually try some of these techniques.

I highly recommend a little inner exploration with this one if it’s not already on your inner roadmap.

Thank you again for joining us and tuning in. Hopefully you found something helpful here, and we’ll see you soon in another episode of Dharma Lab.

Thank you.

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DL Ep. 33: The Left Brain / Right Brain Myth with Dr. Richie Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Thu, 28 May 2026 11:00:00 GMT

In this episode, Richie and Cort continue their conversation on brain asymmetry by revisiting one of the most popular neuroscience ideas of the 1990s: the divide between the “left brain” and the “right brain.” Was the right hemisphere really the creative side of the brain, and the left hemisphere the logical one? Richie explains where that idea came from, what it got right, and why it was taken too far. Along the way, he explores language, visual-spatial processing, the 200 million neurons connecting the hemispheres, and why real creativity may depend less on one side of the brain than on the coordination between both.

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CHECK OUT EPISODE COMPANION FLASHCARDS below!

This is the second part of our conversation on hemispheric specialization with Dr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl. For the first part, see Your Brain Is a Storyteller, where we explore what split-brain research reveals about consciousness and emotion. For more on the popular science misreadings Richie warns about here, see our recent episode on Why dopamine isn't your problem. Dr. Richard Davidson is the William James and Vilas Research Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin–Madison and founder of the Center for Healthy Minds and the Healthy Minds App. His new book with Dr. Cortland Dahl, Born to Flourish, was published by Simon & Schuster in March 2026.

Podcast Chapter List

00:00:00 – Intro clip: Creativity requires both hemispheres00:01:30 – Welcome to Dharma Lab00:02:47 – Left brain/right brain ideas in popular culture00:04:00 – Where did these ideas come from?00:05:11 – Language, handedness, and hemisphere differences00:07:36 – The myth of the creative right brain00:08:50 – The 200 million neurons connecting both hemispheres00:10:38 – Split-brain patients and the corpus callosum00:11:57 – What surprised Richie in the early asymmetry research?00:13:10 – The resting brain data they almost threw away00:15:15 – Stable patterns in the resting brain00:16:04 – From “noise” to emotional style00:18:23 – The prefrontal cortex and emotion00:19:58 – Could you choose to use one side of the brain?00:21:52 – A grain of truth, taken too far00:22:55 – Sequential vs. parallel processing00:23:50 – Why real creativity requires both hemispheres00:24:51 – Interhemispheric coordination and creativity00:26:08 – Tibetan mudras and two-handed movement00:27:31 – Visualization, imagination, and creativity00:28:34 – Closing

Earlier Post on Brain Asymmetry (Part 1)

Written transcript for those who prefer to read

Lightly edited for clarity and readability.

Intro clip: Creativity requires both hemispheres

00:00

Richard Davidson:One of the things that’s true about language, and especially about speech, is that it’s sequential. We can’t say six words at the same time. Just can’t do it.

Cortland Dahl:I’m pretty sure my son could when he was really young, but in any case, it’s usually true.

Richard Davidson:Usually true. But if you have pictures of those six words — let’s say there are six animals and you present a picture — you can see all six at the same time.

That difference is what we call sequential versus parallel processing. There are certain kinds of visual-spatial skills that can be done more in parallel, and other kinds of skills and tasks that require more sequential activity.

And of course, real human creativity, I think, requires both.

This is why we have this massive fiber bundle that connects the two hemispheres together so they can work in an integrated way. I think it’s really an oversimplification to think that the right hemisphere is creative and the left is not.

Every human being has the potential to be creative. When humans are the most creative, we’re harnessing the full capabilities of our brain. It’s not just the right hemisphere or the left hemisphere. It’s both.

Welcome to Dharma Lab

00:01:30

Cortland Dahl:Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Dharma Lab. I’m Cortland Dahl. I’m here with Dr. Richard Davidson, who we all affectionately call Richie, one of the great living neuroscientists on the planet.

Today we’re going to continue a discussion we’ve had previously about some of Richie’s most important early work.

Richie, I’m excited to ask you about this, partly because I myself have always wanted to geek out and hear more about these things. We always have a million things to talk about, but I never get to talk to you about this.

In a previous episode, we talked about your very early research when you were just at Harvard, coming out of grad school, and your early work that showed differences between the different hemispheres of the brain — what is most simply referred to as asymmetry between these different hemispheres.

We talked a lot about that, and we can put a link to that previous discussion.

Left brain/right brain ideas in popular culture

00:02:47

This was back in the late seventies and into the eighties. Then something very interesting happened in the nineties.

I graduated from high school in 1992 and was just starting college. There was a book at that time, and there was all sorts of stuff in the popular media about asymmetry, although that word probably wasn’t used. I remember a lot of things about the left side and right side of the brain.

There was a book that I think was something like Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. It was pointing, in many ways, to your work, which you were very much at the forefront of and had been for many years at that point.

But I imagine, like many things, there was probably a lot of oversimplification and perhaps even misunderstanding about what the science really says and what’s really going on in the brain.

So maybe we could start there, going back to this discussion about asymmetry and what your research and other researchers were really finding about the different hemispheres of the brain — and how that relates to things like creativity, being more logical, and all the stuff that was at work in our popular conversations about the brain at that time.

Where did these ideas come from?

00:04:00

Richard Davidson:Thank you for that great introduction. There’s so much to say. Just being primed with that brings back intense memories from that period. I was very much living this.

I published more than 100 papers on brain asymmetry in one way or another, and edited two books on brain asymmetry that were published by MIT Press. They were major compendiums at the time, with a scientist in Norway named Kenneth Hugdahl, one of my early collaborators.

So yes, there’s so much to say.

Let’s begin by asking where these ideas may have come from.

In the previous episode of Dharma Lab, where we began to introduce this topic, one of the things we talked about is that the left hemisphere can speak and has language much more so than the right hemisphere — at least in most people.

Language, handedness, and hemisphere differences

00:05:11

I should say that these broad generalizations about the left and right hemisphere are roughly true for right-handed people only. They are not necessarily true for people who write with their left hand.

That itself is a whole topic of really interesting conversation, and we’ll bracket it. We can come back to it today briefly. But for now — and I apologize to all you lefties out there — since the majority of people are right-handed, roughly 85%, we’ll just stick with that for now.

One of the questions scientists posed is this: if the left hemisphere can speak and really is the primary province of language, what is the right hemisphere doing?

It’s presumably not just an appendage. It’s not just there to structurally latch on to the left hemisphere and hold it in place. It has to be doing something.

Does it have some specialized role? If the left hemisphere is specialized more for language, is there some set of functions for which the right hemisphere may be better than the left hemisphere?

Scientists discovered that there are certain kinds of visual and spatial tasks that the right hemisphere seems to be better at.

Now, when we say “better,” what we mean is typically a little bit better. It’s not like there are absolute differences. It’s not like the right hemisphere can do this and the left hemisphere can’t do this.

Similarly for language, although for language, the lateralization seems to be more definitive, particularly for speaking. For right-handed people, it’s pretty much the case that the left hemisphere can speak and the right hemisphere cannot speak. That’s pretty clear, and there are various ways in which that has been demonstrated.

The myth of the creative right brain

00:07:36

Let me get back to the title of this popular book, Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. There was a lot of hype that the right hemisphere is the creative hemisphere and the left hemisphere is the analytic hemisphere.

When it got overgeneralized, it became something like: the right hemisphere is more interesting and the left hemisphere is boring.

Those kinds of generalizations, in my view, were taken way too far.

The other really important thing to keep in mind is that within a hemisphere, there is a lot of specialization as well. The anterior portions of the cerebral cortex, the prefrontal region, are doing something quite different from the back of the brain.

The visual areas and the parietal area are doing different things. The parietal area is where visual information, auditory information, and kinesthetic information are all integrated. It’s kind of a multi-sensory melting pot.

So these characterizations may apply to certain specific regions within a hemisphere, and not necessarily to the whole hemisphere.

The 200 million neurons connecting both hemispheres

00:08:50

The other thing that is so important to keep in mind is that in most of us who are neurologically “normal,” meaning we have basically intact brains, there are roughly 200 million neurons connecting one side of the brain to the other.

It’s a huge number. It’s the largest white matter fiber bundle in the brain. White matter refers to the axons that connect neurons together.

There are 200 million neurons connecting many different parts of the two hemispheres, virtually from the front to the back of the brain.

If I were to present information to one hemisphere — and you can do this by doing certain tricks — it would be presented initially to one hemisphere. If you are focusing straight ahead and information is presented on the left side of that fixation point, that information will be projected initially to the right side of the brain. The pathways are crossed.

Similarly, if you are focusing straight ahead and information is presented to the right of that fixation point, it goes to the left hemisphere of the brain.

But the moment it gets to one hemisphere, it is automatically transferred to the other hemisphere, so both hemispheres become recipients — unless, for some reason, there is damage to the fiber bundle connecting the two hemispheres.

Split-brain patients and the corpus callosum

00:10:38

In the previous episode of Dharma Lab, Cort, you brought up the case of split-brain patients whose corpus callosum — the main fiber bundle that connects the two hemispheres of the brain — has been surgically severed.

That is not done very much anymore, but in patients who have very severe epilepsy that originates in one hemisphere and spreads to the other hemisphere, producing a huge grand mal seizure, it was found that if you surgically separate the hemispheres, you can dramatically reduce the severity of the epilepsy.

So that has been done. It’s not done very much anymore, but there was a time when that kind of neurosurgery was done.

There are patients walking around with two hemispheres that are relatively independent because the fiber bundle was severed. But in most of us, that’s not true.

Our two hemispheres are talking together all the time. Whatever specialization might exist, and it does exist to some extent, the two hemispheres are typically cooperating and sending information rapidly back and forth.

What surprised Richie in the early asymmetry research?

00:11:57

Cortland Dahl:I’m curious. There are two big questions I want to ask. One goes back to the book and the stuff in popular culture, but maybe let’s set that aside for a moment.

You had been researching this for a long time. You started back in the seventies, and this was clearly a huge focus of yours in the eighties.

Amidst these hundreds of papers that you studied, plus hundreds more in the broader field with other colleagues and researchers, what were the things that were surprising?

When was your mind blown? When were you surprised? What were the big breakthroughs where you thought, “Whoa, I didn’t see that coming,” or that really shifted the understanding in some way?

Richard Davidson:I would say the biggest breakthrough was that these were the days before MRI was available, before functional MRI was available.

Cortland Dahl:So most of this was EEG, looking at electrical patterns in the brain?

Richard Davidson:Exactly. We were looking at EEG, electrical patterns from scalp electrodes that were non-invasive. You’ve had that done to yourself. And we can make some inferences about how activation patterns are shifting and occurring using that method.

The resting brain data they almost threw away

00:13:10

The thing that was most mind-blowing to us from all this work is that when you put these electrodes on people and just ask them to sit and rest — before we gave them tasks — we would collect eight minutes of resting data.

They would alternate between one minute of eyes open and one minute of eyes closed. We would collect eight minutes of “resting” data.

Cortland Dahl:So you were doing, as we do in brain imaging all the time now, an early resting-state analysis, essentially.

Richard Davidson:Exactly. But we typically did very little with that in the early days. Actually, in the very early days, the honest truth is we did nothing with it.

It was just a time to make sure our recordings were accurate. If there were any tweaks in calibration, or if an electrode was not making good contact, we would fix it at that time.

But we would throw out the data, because we were interested in what happens when we give people tasks and look at changes in the brain.

It turns out that we were throwing out the most interesting data.

What people were showing when they were just sitting and resting and not doing anything turned out to be fascinating. Some people had greater activation on the left side of their brain when they were sitting and resting. Other people had greater activation on the right side.

That differed depending on whether the electrodes were in the back of the head or the front of the head, so it wasn’t the same across the hemispheres.

Stable patterns in the resting brain

00:15:15

When we first started seeing this and paying attention to it, we thought, “It can’t really be stable. It can’t be a characteristic of people.”

So we brought people back a week later, a month later.

Cortland Dahl:So you thought it was just random shifting. If you looked long enough, you would see that everybody was all over the place. You just got a snapshot, but you didn’t want to draw any conclusions.

Richard Davidson:Exactly.

Then we brought people back several weeks later, several months later. Unbelievably, it was super stable.

If a person was showing left-sided activation today, if we tested them three months from now, we would almost certainly see a very similar pattern three months later.

Cortland Dahl:So this is like a neural disposition, basically.

Richard Davidson:A neural disposition.

It didn’t matter who the people were putting on the electrodes, who was testing them, or what day of the week it was. They were showing a very stable pattern. Remarkably stable.

That really blew our minds. We were not expecting that at all.

From “noise” to emotional style

00:16:04

Once we started discovering that, we thought: if this is really a stable characteristic, then it must be associated with some behavioral differences or experiential differences.

That’s when we started our whole journey into this domain of affective style, or emotional style, which refers to enduring ways in which people respond differently to emotional challenges.

We discovered a whole bunch of interesting things with that.

This is a great case of something we first thought of as noise turning out to be the most interesting part of our experiment. Fortunately, we were paying enough attention that it enabled us to discover something novel.

Cortland Dahl:It’s funny that there’s such a parallel with how the default mode network was discovered later with imaging research. It was almost the exact same thing: accidentally noticing something in resting-state periods.

That seems like a natural segue into what eventually became this popular meme around the brain, the left side and right side. It’s funny how it becomes almost a caricature of the brain. We’ve talked elsewhere about dopamine or the amygdala. There may be some legitimate, genuine scientific insight, but then we draw all sorts of conclusions. It becomes good and bad, overly simplistic, and we lose the nuance.

The prefrontal cortex and emotion

00:18:23

If we translate that into what you actually learned, in this case it sounds like a lot about emotion. At some point we’re going to talk about the whole field of affective neuroscience, because I’m imagining that in those early days you weren’t necessarily thinking about emotion as a guiding principle, but it sounds like it led you into that realm.

Richard Davidson:We were thinking about emotion early on. That was part of what we were trying to do. We were thinking particularly about what role the prefrontal cortex was playing in emotion.

In the last episode of Dharma Lab, I mentioned this obscure paper written by a very famous neuroanatomist at MIT.

Cortland Dahl:The cult classic of scientific research, I remember.

Richard Davidson:Right. This was a guy I studied neuroanatomy with, Walle Nauta. He wrote a paper published in the Journal of Psychiatric Research, where he speculated for the first time, really by a mainstream scientist, about the role of the prefrontal cortex in emotion.

That is what got me started on this path to look at the prefrontal cortex and emotion.

But the hype about brain asymmetry was focused on the specializations in the back of the brain, not the front of the brain. We were really the first to introduce the notion of asymmetries in the front of the brain that may be related to emotion.

There was earlier work on asymmetries having to do with language and visual-spatial processes, more focused on what is going on in the back of the brain. The right-brain coloring book is really alluding to work focused on specialization of the two hemispheres in the back, not in the front.

Could you choose to use one side of the brain?

00:19:58

Cortland Dahl:A lot of the stuff in popular culture gave the impression that you could kind of choose. Even the title of that book suggests, “I want to draw from the right side of my brain,” and somehow I’m going to shut off the left side.

To what degree is this under volitional control? I’m guessing some function or activity might be, but maybe not. To what degree is there any control?

Richard Davidson:One of the very early papers I published — which I haven’t thought about in literally decades — was a biofeedback study where we gave people feedback, not based on activation in one hemisphere or the other, but based on the difference in activation.

We were giving them feedback to change their asymmetry. We found that people were able to do that to some extent with very little training, just using this kind of neurofeedback.

Cortland Dahl:On the one hand, that makes sense to me. You could learn quite quickly what you’re doing that makes something go up or down.

But it’s a different thing to say that a given function, like drawing, can be shifted in that way. Language, for example, probably isn’t something you’re going to shift to the right side of the brain. Certain functions, processes, and activities are going to fall more to one side or the other.

When it came to all the stuff in popular culture, did that make sense to you? Did it feel like it was drawing on something legitimate, or did it feel like we were in hand-wavy territory?

A grain of truth, taken too far

00:21:52

Richard Davidson:There was a grain of truth, but it was way overgeneralized.

To the extent that it is grounded, it is referring to what may be going on in posterior parts of the cortex, mostly the parietal and temporal regions of the brain.

It’s interesting to ask what fundamental dimension might actually be the basis of this lateralization. That was a question asked early on.

Why is language more specialized to the left hemisphere? Is there something about the left hemisphere in those regions that is more conducive or preferential for language? And what is going on in the right hemisphere that may be more conducive to certain kinds of visual and spatial functions?

Sequential vs. parallel processing

00:22:55

One of the core dimensions that has been studied — though I would not say it is definitive — is that language, especially speech, is sequential.

We can’t say six words at the same time. Just can’t do it.

Cortland Dahl:I’m pretty sure my son could when he was really young, but in any case, it’s usually true.

Richard Davidson:Usually true.

But if you have pictures of those six words — let’s say there are six animals and you present a picture — you can see all six at the same time.

Why real creativity requires both hemispheres

00:23:50

Of course, real human creativity, I think, requires both.

This is why we have this massive fiber bundle that connects the two hemispheres together, so they can work in an integrated way and utilize whatever specialization might be in each hemisphere together, in a synergistic way, to accomplish something that may be greater than either hemisphere alone can accomplish.

I think it’s really an oversimplification to think that the right hemisphere is creative and the left is not.

Every human being has the potential to be creative. When humans are the most creative, we’re harnessing the full capabilities of our brain.

It’s not just the right hemisphere or the left hemisphere. It’s both.

That is one of the really important take-home messages.

Interhemispheric coordination and creativity

00:24:51

One of the speculations that is super interesting — although there really has not been very much science around this — is that what may really stimulate creativity are tasks that require a lot of interhemispheric coordination.

One class of tasks that require a lot of interhemispheric coordination are certain kinds of motor tasks. For example, jugglers.

Juggling requires a lot of interhemispheric coordination. It’s not just hand-eye coordination, but coordinating what’s happening between the two hands.

One of the things we know is that pretty much the control of the right hand is in the left motor region of the brain, and the left hand is pretty much controlled by the right side of the brain.

If the hands are working together, it requires interaction between them. So one really interesting, untested hypothesis is whether exercises that facilitate this kind of interhemispheric coordination may be beneficial for certain kinds of creative activities that may have nothing to do with those motor tasks.

Tibetan mudras and two-handed movement

00:26:08

Cortland Dahl:We talked about this Tibetan practice of mudras, where you’re doing things with your hands, but what’s going on with one hand is totally different from what’s going on with the other hand.

It’s like the whole thing where you pat your head and circle your stomach, but on steroids. They almost have to operate completely independently, but it goes against some biological wiring. You have to retrain something deep to do that.

That would be an example of something where you’re doing it physically, but the idea is that perhaps it is opening something up in the creative space, or in some other way.

Richard Davidson:Yes. This was something that Cort and I talked about just before we started recording.

There are these mudras in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. They are hand gestures, and they can be very complex and quite different. They involve different motions of each hand, all occurring simultaneously in a kind of beautiful orchestration when done by an accomplished practitioner.

There may be some real side benefits that Tibetan yogis thousands of years ago had some experiential insight about, which may potentially be revealed in some future science.

Visualization, imagination, and creativity

00:27:31

Cortland Dahl:There are so many interesting things there. That’s another little rabbit hole.

It’s interesting that at the time you do those physical gestures, you’re also doing very elaborate movements with your imagination. You’re visualizing whole worlds, essentially. It’s like you’re dreaming something into existence, but you’re doing these physical movements at the same time.

It really is all about creativity in some respect.

I’ve already cataloged a whole range of things to talk about. In a subsequent episode, I really want to dig deeper into the hemispheric differences in the resting state — not only that you found those hemispheric differences, but what they mapped onto in terms of experiential qualities.

What was different about those people aside from the electrical activity in their brain? Maybe that’s something we can dig into in a future episode.

Closing

00:28:34

Richard Davidson:I’d love to do that.

Cortland Dahl:Yet another great window into all the amazing work you’ve done, Richie. Thank you for sharing this.

And for everybody joining, thank you for sticking around and spending a little time with us. I can promise many more discussions like this. So if you found this interesting, there will be much more to come.

Thank you, Richie, and thank you everybody for tuning in.

Richard Davidson:Thank you, Cort. Thank you all.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.32: Dopamine Isn’t Your Problem with Dr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Thu, 21 May 2026 11:00:00 GMT

In this episode, Richie Davidson and Cortland Dahl unpack a very misunderstood molecule in popular culture: dopamine. Often blamed for craving, scrolling, distraction, and the endless loop of wanting more, dopamine is not something we can “detox” from or simply turn off. It is essential to motivation, aspiration, learning, and even the desire to practice meditation. Together, Richie and Cort explore what dopamine actually does in the brain, why wanting and liking are not the same thing, how novelty keeps us hooked, and how savoring may help us step out of compulsive loops and reorient toward what is genuinely nourishing. Enjoy!

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Podcast Chapter List

(00:00:00) – Dopamine is not something we can turn off

(00:03:46) – What is a neurotransmitter?

(00:06:04) – Dopamine as neurotransmitter and neuromodulator

(00:08:20) – Why the brain is too complex for simple chemical stories

(00:12:02) – The awe and mystery of the brain

(00:15:51) – Dopamine, motivation, and the myth of dopamine detox

(00:17:04) – Wanting vs. liking

(00:19:24) – Doom scrolling and the loop of seeking

(00:22:32) – Does dopamine explain why we keep scrolling?

(00:24:21) – Experiential fusion and mindless behavior

(00:25:42) – Why one molecule is never the whole story

(00:26:57) – Novelty and reward prediction error

(00:29:00) – The Easter egg example: seeking, finding, and disappointment

(00:30:23) – Dopamine in different brain circuits

(00:35:37) – What actually helps with compulsive loops?

(00:37:47) – Savoring as a way out of wanting

(00:39:24) – Meditation, breath, and the practice of savoring

(00:43:20) – Letting go of seeking

(00:43:56) – Gratitude, bodhicitta, and the sweetness of connection

(00:45:28) – Renunciation as reorientation

(00:48:00) – Closing

Related Topics From the Archives:

Written transcript for those who prefer to read

Lightly edited for clarity and readability.

Dopamine Is Not Something We Can Turn Off (00:00:00)

Richard Davidson:Dopamine is essential for human life.

Cortland Dahl:There’s no turning dopamine off.

Richard Davidson:No turning dopamine off. And anyone who thinks they’re going on a dopamine detox and really banishing their brain of dopamine, I hate to burst the bubble, but that would not be compatible with life.

Dopamine is essential in motivation, desire, seeking, and anything that is goal-directed. It has been described by the neuroscientist Kent Berridge as central to “wanting,” which he contrasts with something that it is often confused with: “liking.”

Many times, we like the things we want. But not all the time. Sometimes we get caught up in a wanting cycle that is not necessarily leading to liking.

But dopamine also plays an incredibly positive and important role. When I spring out of bed in the morning, go down to have my cup of tea, and have the strong aspiration to meditate, that is inevitably relying on the dopamine system too.

Welcome to Dharma Lab (00:01:45)

Cortland Dahl:Welcome everyone to another episode of Dharma Lab. I’m Cortland Dahl, and I’m here with my dear friend Richie, Dr. Richard Davidson, who, as I’m sure most of you know, is one of the most eminent neuroscientists on the planet.

We’re incredibly fortunate to have him in discussion yet again, and for a topic that he is especially well suited to talk about, which is dopamine.

I never thought dopamine would be a hook for a conversation like this, but it has taken on almost mythic status in popular culture. It has almost become the bad boy of the brain, like the amygdala, which is one brain region that always gets a bad rap and is associated with all sorts of negative things.

These days, of course, we hear a lot about dopamine. You might have heard of things like a dopamine detox, which makes it sound like dopamine is some toxic thing in the brain that we want to get rid of or shut off or have less of in some way.

So we thought we could get into the science of neurotransmitters generally, and then specifically dopamine. What does the science really say? What function does dopamine actually play, not only in our brains but in our ability to thrive and flourish?

Richie, maybe we can start by zooming way out. I’m guessing people have heard the word dopamine. Some may have geeked out a little and learned more or even tried something like a dopamine detox. Other people may have heard about serotonin or other neurotransmitters, but my guess is that people’s understanding is still a little fuzzy.

Could we start with the idea of a neurotransmitter, and then zoom in and look at dopamine specifically?

What Is a Neurotransmitter? (00:03:46)

Richard Davidson:Yes. Thank you so much. This is a juicy topic and very appropriate for Dharma Lab.

There is a constellation of molecules in the brain that play many different roles. One of those roles is what you mentioned: a neurotransmitter.

A neurotransmitter has a very specific role in mediating the interaction between two neurons. When one neuron fires, it sends an electric potential down the axon of that neuron. You can think of the axon as the wire extending from the cell body. The cell body is where the basic machinery is, and the axon extends from the neuron.

Those axons can be short, and they can also be very, very long. If I asked you right now to move the big toe in your right foot, all of you should be able to do that. That is actually a neuron that extends all the way from your brain to your big toe.

Cortland Dahl:That’s a single neuron? That’s cool. I didn’t know that.

Richard Davidson:Yes, it is a single neuron. Neurons have many different lengths.

At the end of the axon, there is machinery that releases a little packet of chemical. That packet binds to what is called a receptor on another neuron, and that initiates an electric change in the second neuron.

That is how communication works between two or more neurons. That is called a neurotransmitter.

Dopamine as Neurotransmitter and Neuromodulator (00:06:04)

There are also neurotransmitters and other molecules that act as neuromodulators. A neuromodulator is different from a neurotransmitter. Dopamine, which is the topic of our conversation today, can serve as both a neurotransmitter and a neuromodulator.

What is the difference?

A neuromodulator alters the threshold for the firing of a neuron. It is not directly involved in cell-to-cell communication in the same way. It is more like the molecular soup in which the neuron resides, and that changes the threshold for the firing of the subsequent neuron.

There are many molecules that serve as both neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, and dopamine is one of them.

I think most neuroscientists would agree that we have not yet discovered the full range of neuromodulators and neurotransmitters in the human brain. It is a vast number. In the popular press, we’ve heard about dopamine, serotonin, maybe norepinephrine, maybe GABA. But there are hundreds of these molecules playing complicated roles.

This is why, in general, it is extremely hazardous to pin a particular mental state on a single molecule. That is almost assuredly excessively simplistic and wrong.

To the best of our knowledge, there is no well-defined psychological state that can be pinned to one specific molecule. It is much more complex than that.

Why the Brain Is Too Complex for Simple Chemical Stories (00:08:20)

Cortland Dahl:Just as a footnote, I think it’s mind-boggling when you hear how complex our brains are. Could you say a little about the estimates of how many neurons there are, and then beyond that, the connections between neurons?

Now we’re talking about neurons communicating with each other. It’s an order of magnitude we can’t even comprehend.

Richard Davidson:The estimated number of neurons in the human brain is about 85 or 88 billion.

Cortland Dahl:That’s a “b,” everyone.

Richard Davidson:Yes, billion. And the estimated number of connections among those neurons is in the trillions.

Cortland Dahl:That’s in your head, everyone. Trillions of interconnections, and all these little communications, neuromodulators and neurotransmitters. The number of times that is happening right now, as you’re listening, is beyond what we can actually think about.

Richard Davidson:That’s very true. I often reflect on this as a humility induction, because it is so complicated and we really understand so little of it at this point in time.

If we pause to appreciate the complexity, and if we are honest with ourselves, it really is a humility induction.

It also exposes how gross our measures are. We’ve done a lot of research with EEG, including the first paper we published with long-term meditation practitioners. EEG involves putting electrodes on the scalp surface. We use it because it is non-invasive and has very fast time resolution.

But some people have likened EEG to taking a stethoscope, putting it on the hood of a car, and trying to understand how the car works by listening to the sounds from the stethoscope. That is what EEG is like.

Cortland Dahl:So by “gross,” you mean it is such a coarse level of analysis for something that is so incredibly nuanced, beyond what our minds can comprehend. At some point in history, we’ll look back and it will seem like the Stone Age, the way we look at the brain now.

Richard Davidson:Totally.

There is a whole class of research that goes on in animals, and there are serious ethical issues about this kind of research. That could be the subject of another Dharma Lab. We won’t talk about that right now.

Putting those ethical issues temporarily aside, those studies in animals are done because they use methods that cannot be used in humans. They are invasive methods that allow scientists to look at a much more granular level of analysis that cannot be examined with the methods we currently have in humans.

The Awe and Mystery of the Brain (00:12:02)

Cortland Dahl:This was not where we were expecting to go, but I think this could be another episode too: the mystery of the brain.

You might come to somebody like Richie and think you’re going to get sophisticated knowledge, and in many ways you will. But in another way, you get a sense that even the world’s leading experts are barely knocking on the door of this universe that is so awe-inspiringly complex and nuanced.

It’s almost like looking up into the night sky and feeling the majesty of this incredible universe, and realizing that this is literally happening between our ears. It’s awe-inducing when you open up to that.

Richard Davidson:It is. We are constantly forming new synapses, and even structural changes in the brain happen much more quickly than we ever thought they could.

One really interesting thing about the brain is that it has no receptors for feeling itself. When you touch your skin, you can feel that. If you put a vibrator on the skin, you would feel that. But if you opened the brain and put a little vibrator directly on the brain, you wouldn’t feel it.

There is probably an evolutionary reason for this. Our brains are active all the time. If we felt tingling every time our brains were active or new synapses were forming, it would disrupt our capacity to navigate everyday life. We wouldn’t be able to sleep. It would interfere with everything.

But I sometimes do a little practice where I envision all these changes occurring. It is majestic. It really is awe-inspiring. I’ve looked at enough images from studies that have taken samples of brain tissue, where you can see with an electron microscope at super-high resolution what we can’t see non-invasively. You see the extraordinary complexity and beauty that we simply do not have introspective access to.

Cortland Dahl:Yet another topic to put a pin in for a future episode: the mystery of the brain, and beyond that the mystery of consciousness.

But let’s zoom back in to neurotransmitters and neuromodulators. One way to think about this is that neurotransmitters are how neurons are talking to each other, and neuromodulators influence the level of activity between neurons.

Dopamine is interesting because it has become so meme-worthy. What do we actually know about dopamine and the functions it serves in the brain?

Dopamine, Motivation, and the Myth of Dopamine Detox (00:15:51)

Richard Davidson:Dopamine is essential for human life.

Cortland Dahl:There’s no turning dopamine off.

Richard Davidson:No turning dopamine off. Anyone who thinks they’re going on a dopamine detox and really banishing their brain of dopamine, I hate to burst the bubble, but that would not be compatible with life.

Dopamine is essential in what we can think of as motivation, desire, seeking, anything goal-directed where we have a plan. Even if it’s a pedestrian plan, like after this podcast we might go have dinner. It could be something as simple as that. There is an element of motivation involved in that, and it involves the dopamine systems in the brain.

Wanting vs. Liking (00:17:04)

Dopamine has been described by a very famous neuroscientist, Kent Berridge at the University of Michigan, who has made seminal contributions to our understanding of the dopamine system. He has labeled a key function of the dopamine system as “wanting,” and he contrasts that with something it is often confused with, which is “liking.”

Many times, we like the things we want. But not all the time.

For Dharma Lab viewers, who likely have some appreciation for how the mind works, I think we all have some insight into recognizing that sometimes we get caught up in a wanting cycle that is not necessarily leading to liking. It is a kind of perseverative loop of wanting.

This is part of the reason why there are popular stereotypes about dopamine.

But dopamine also plays an incredibly positive and important role. When I spring out of bed in the morning, go down to have my cup of tea, and then meditate, and have the strong aspiration to meditate, that is inevitably relying on the dopamine system too.

If dopamine were completely blunted, it would be very difficult to get out of bed and do anything. You can think of dopamine as part of an approach-oriented, energetic stance.

Anytime we have an aspiration to do something, that is going to rely, at least to some extent, on the dopamine system. So this is not a system we want to get rid of.

Doom Scrolling and the Loop of Seeking (00:19:24)

Cortland Dahl:Let me give you a real-world experience, and I’d love to ask how dopamine does or does not play a role in it.

I am very rarely on social media. It’s not something I spend much time on. But the other night I had an experience that a lot of people probably have all the time. Somebody forwarded me a link from one of these apps where you end up scrolling forever.

It was a video that made me laugh hysterically out loud. I was sitting by myself in a room, and if someone had looked in the window, they would have thought I was nuts.

It was a video where two friends were looking at themselves on the screen, and one had put on a filter that made it look like a bug was crawling across the other person’s face. So the person sees what looks like a spider on their face and starts slapping themselves. It was hilarious.

I watched that and was literally laughing hysterically. And the algorithms of these apps know when you watch the whole thing twice. So then it shows you more of the thing you clearly liked.

Then there was another one, and the next one was even funnier. It was wives playing a prank on their spouses, pretending to freak out like something was happening, just to see what the husband would do. And the husbands would start screaming and running around. Again, it was hilarious. I was laughing out loud.

But then I got into this loop where I was trying to find another one. It was so funny, and I had this little burst of joy. Then I literally wasted an hour of my time. After a few minutes I wasn’t laughing anymore. I was just scrolling mindlessly.

I wasn’t consciously thinking, “I have to find another funny video.” I was just in this inner loop, sucked into the endless scroll, until I finally thought, “I’ve got to go to bed.” Then I felt like, “What a waste of time.”

That first minute or two was actually funny. It was nice to laugh hysterically. And then it became a lot of mind-numbing scrolling that was utterly unsatisfying.

So let’s look at a moment like that from the perspective of what is going on in the brain, and specifically with dopamine. These are the moments where people demonize dopamine, as though that’s the thing that happened and we need to somehow extract it.

What would you say about that?

Does Dopamine Explain Why We Keep Scrolling? (00:22:32)

Richard Davidson:Those are interesting experiences that I think all of us have occasionally.

I would say dopamine likely plays some role, at least in the initial entry into that scrolling perseveration. Whether it is sustaining that over the whole period of time, I don’t know. It’s an interesting question.

Part of it depends on the extent to which you feel a real strong urge to do it. If someone took away your phone at that point, how would you react? There are ways of probing whether the wanting cycle is really dominant.

There could be other reasons why people scroll. One of my theories is that people engage in this kind of behavior in part to block the default mode, because the scrolling is consuming.

I’m curious about your phenomenological report of when you are scrolling. But I think that at least in the initial stages of scrolling, when people are really into it, there is what we would call experiential fusion.

Experiential Fusion and Mindless Behavior (00:24:21)

Cortland Dahl:For sure.

Richard Davidson:Their whole awareness is fused with the activity they’re engaged in. There’s not a lot of meta-awareness. They’re just sucked in.

Cortland Dahl:It’s almost like there’s no conscious doom scrolling, because if you were fully aware and conscious, you would just stop doing it.

I sometimes have the same experience drinking soda. You almost have to do it mindlessly, because if you really savor the taste, it’s actually kind of gross. I’ve noticed there are certain foods and certain things you consume that only work mindlessly.

Richard Davidson:But that’s not true of French fries.

Cortland Dahl:Richie, now you’re in sensitive territory. We’re not going to go there. I will concede soda. French fries, we’ll see. I’ll experiment with that.

But it’s true. Certain things only work mindlessly. When you consciously do them, you would not do them anymore because they don’t feel good. It’s interesting. It changes a lot.

Richard Davidson:Exactly. That is in part what sustains that kind of behavior as well. And I don’t think that is primarily a dopaminergic process.

Viewers may ask, “Okay, then what molecule is responsible for that?” And I would say, likely 500 molecules. Don’t even try to think about it that way. It’s not the right level of analysis.

Novelty and Reward Prediction Error (00:25:42)

Cortland Dahl:Going back to Berridge’s work, we have a whole episode on the distinction between liking and wanting, and there’s a great paper where he summarizes a lot of the research in this area.

If you look at the experience I was having, there was a moment of genuine liking. I was having fun. I was laughing hysterically. Then there was a moment of seeking. I was just looking.

There are all sorts of interesting things in the way algorithms work. There is something around duration. There is something around novelty. If you really pay attention, it’s not just that everything is the same. The algorithm gives you things that are different intentionally, and then you get something you like and it feels new again.

If you got the exact same thing 10 times in a row, even if you liked it at first, you would grow accustomed to it. It would lose the novelty factor. So there is something around duration, novelty, and emotion. There are all sorts of things mixed into it.

Richard Davidson:The novelty piece you’re mentioning is really important. It is a very important aspect of dopamine function that has been studied.

There is this idea of a reward prediction error, as it is called in the technical scientific lingo.

What is a reward prediction error?

In this case, you have a certain class of video that you’re looking at. You saw one, so you have a mental model of what these videos are like.

Cortland Dahl:So now that’s what I want. That’s the wanting. I’m looking for that.

Richard Davidson:Exactly. You’re looking for that.

Let’s say the next video you encounter is even more hysterical. That is a reward prediction error. You would actually see a larger dopamine spike than you saw previously.

If you saw a video that was comparable to what you just saw, there wouldn’t be any change in the dopamine signal. If you saw a video that was much less interesting and less compelling, there would be a decline, a decrement in dopamine.

Dopamine signaling is very dynamic and responsive to the information to which you are being exposed. It plays an important role in certain aspects of learning, and it informs your future seeking.

The Easter Egg Example: Seeking, Finding, and Disappointment (00:29:00)

Cortland Dahl:Let’s unpack that.

We just had Easter in the U.S., and I had this image of a little kid running around looking for an Easter egg. They have the model. They know what they want. They’re looking, they’re not finding, then they find something. Sometimes they find something beyond what they expected, maybe an extra big piece of candy or the basket with all the candy.

That seems like a good example because the seeking is very clear. The mental model is very clear. The not finding, and then the finding more, has all the dimensions you talked about.

But it’s interesting. You’re saying that when the kid is looking for the Easter egg and doesn’t find it, say they lift up the cushion of the couch and there’s nothing there, dopamine levels will actually drop in that moment?

Richard Davidson:Yes.

Cortland Dahl:Because if you forget about the neurotransmitters and just look at behavior, of course the seeking doesn’t stop. They immediately shift and think, “Where do I need to go next?”

So there’s something still driving the seeking. But if dopamine is dropping, and if dopamine is that motivational, goal-directed impulse in the brain, how does that work?

Dopamine in Different Brain Circuits (00:30:23)

Richard Davidson:Those are excellent questions. It’s an opportunity to speak about another piece of complexity: dopamine is found in a number of different parts of the brain. It’s not just in one isolated location.

Its function in different parts of the brain is different. It is the same molecule, but the location is different, the receptors are different, the connections are different, and the function is different.

The dopamine that is part of the wanting circuit is found primarily in an area of the brain called the ventral striatum, a subcortical area that is rich in dopamine.

We know that if there is brain damage to that area, based mostly on animal studies, animals will not seek in the ways we’ve been talking about. But it doesn’t affect their enjoyment of a reward.

Let’s say bananas are their favorite food. They can smell the banana. They know it’s six feet away. If they walk, they can get the banana. But they will not go and get it, even though they can smell it.

But if you put the banana in their mouth, they will enjoy it. Scientists know they enjoy it because they make certain sounds and facial expressions when they are enjoying it. If you video them, you can see it.

There are other molecules that seem much more associated with pleasure. The two major classes of molecules associated with pleasure in the brain are endogenous opiates and endogenous cannabinoids. Endocannabinoids are related to the active ingredient in marijuana, and they are found endogenously in the human brain. Those molecules are active in response to pleasure.

The reward prediction error signaling I was talking about is mediated in a different but adjacent part of the brain that is also rich in dopamine. The caudate nucleus is critically important for prediction error signaling. There is also prediction error signaling in other areas of the brain, including the prefrontal cortex.

So these dopamine-related functions occur in different areas of the brain.

Cortland Dahl:So going back to the Easter egg example, the child is looking for something, wanting something, and not finding it where they expect it to be. Is it in the caudate that the levels would drop, but in the ventral striatum they might still be high because the child is still seeking?

Richard Davidson:I’m not sure what would happen in that specific case. If the child is still seeking, you would expect dopamine levels to be high in the ventral striatum.

The prediction error changes we’re talking about are phasic changes. They are extremely short-lived, very dynamic, up and down. They are like an evoked potential, an electrical signal that goes down and then up very quickly.

These are changes that we cannot see in the human brain because we do not have methods to look at changes on that time course non-invasively.

What Actually Helps with Compulsive Loops? (00:35:37)

Cortland Dahl:Zooming out, with memes like dopamine detox, I think what people are trying to understand and intervene in are these cycles that are essentially unfulfilling but become almost compulsive behavior. Doom scrolling is maybe the classic example.

You’re doing something inherently unfulfilling, and yet you do it compulsively and for long periods of time.

One key takeaway is that this is likely much more complex than we normally think. Even with one chemical, one neurotransmitter or neuromodulator, it depends on which part of the brain you’re looking at, which network you’re looking at, and the time course from one moment to the next.

So you can’t just say, “That’s the thing we want to stop happening,” because it is way more complex than that.

But what could we say? In my mind, disentangling liking and wanting is one of the most helpful things for understanding how this is processed in the brain. What would you want people to know that could help them navigate some of these compulsive behaviors that we get stuck in?

Savoring as a Way Out of Wanting (00:37:47)

Richard Davidson:The knowledge we’re providing in this discussion can be helpful as background. But locking onto it in an excessively concrete way may not be that helpful.

Getting stuck in doom scrolling may involve dopamine initially, but it has to be much more complicated than that. It clearly involves other things too.

I think the distinction between wanting and liking is very important. Creating the causes and conditions that help us appreciate the liking, and really tune in to the events or stimuli associated with liking, can be enormously helpful.

Some psychologists have called this savoring. We can really savor these positive moments, and that can help us get unstuck from the loop of wanting.

The dopamine story is interesting, and at a very high level there is truth to the fact that dopamine is primarily associated with wanting and seeking. To the extent that this kind of behavior is causing problems, we can do our best to change it.

But one of the best ways to change it may be simply to focus more on liking.

Meditation, Breath, and the Practice of Savoring (00:39:24)

Cortland Dahl:That is such an important point, and it reminds me of key insights from meditation and my own practice.

Even with something like mindful breathing, which was the first practice I learned and one I still do, there are practices where the orientation is almost neutral. You step back and orient to awareness itself. You are not worrying so much about what is happening within the field of awareness. Whatever is happening is just a neutral phenomenon, and orienting to awareness itself is the focus.

But there is another kind of practice that is very different, and it is all about savoring.

You can practice breathing with awareness in many different ways. One way is where awareness is the main point and the breath is just a support or anchor. But another way is to breathe as a process of savoring. You really tune into the felt sense of the nourishing, even healing quality of the breath.

Because I’ve done both forms of practice, and a lot of the savoring aspect, even now as I do this I have goosebumps. I can feel this chemical reaction in my body. My whole body is feeling this just because the moment you remember it, it starts happening.

At the beginning, it uses the imagination. Then at a certain point, it elicits a visceral response. You feel this pleasant energy, and you immerse yourself in the healing energy of your own breath. It is there every moment.

That is different from stepping back and being aware. Both are helpful and profound, but they do different things.

The key is that you can do this with anything. Loving-kindness and compassion practices are like savoring connection. You first elicit the feeling of connectedness.

I can do this right now. We’re talking, and I can say, “This is Richie. I love Richie.” Immediately I feel that. I do love you. And then you can immerse yourself in that.

It is a skill to stay tuned in. It’s like finding the frequency. Habit energy pulls you off course, but you learn to keep it dialed in, and you can get good at it.

When you’re around the Dalai Lama, he is always in that frequency. He is never not in that frequency. You can feel it when you’re with him. He is radiating that because he is completely dialed into that frequency.

In a way, this quality of savoring is a skill you can learn and deploy in different ways. It could be eating an orange. It could be connecting with somebody else. It could be how you relate to your own breath.

There is no chasing in it. It is just tuning into something that is already there.

Letting Go of Seeking (00:43:20)

Richard Davidson:Exactly. I love that description. You don’t need to seek it because it’s right there.

You can let go of seeking completely and tune right into the delicious nectar that is always there.

Cortland Dahl:I feel like if people just knew this, it would change so much. There is so much chasing in our lives. Even meditation can become another place where we bring chasing energy and seeking energy, which almost never works out very well.

Maybe we can end here. Are there any practical things from your own practice that help you stay with the savoring side of things, and notice the pull toward chasing and seeking?

Gratitude, Bodhicitta, and the Sweetness of Connection (00:43:56)

Richard Davidson:For me, appreciation and gratitude are really important.

Also, the kind of practice that you and I do before each Dharma Lab episode, bodhicitta practice, is very important. Reflecting on how our actions can be of benefit to others has a sweetness associated with it.

Really leaning in and connecting to that sweet quality of connection is heart-opening for me. It naturally allows the wanting piece to subside on its own.

There is not an active pushing down of wanting. It is more about leaning into and connecting with this sweetness.

If you do find that wanting is rearing its head, then to use a strategy we’ve been taught by Mingyur Rinpoche, you can become aware of it. Really just be aware of your wanting. If you stay aware of it and do not get totally sucked into it, it will subside on its own.

Renunciation as Reorientation (00:45:28)

Cortland Dahl:That’s beautiful. There are some helpful things here, especially if we zoom out to the detox idea.

A lot of the meme around dopamine detox is almost an abstinence mentality. You just need to stop all stimulation, anything that is creating problems. It can feel like a retreat-from-the-world mentality.

This reminds me of one of the most misunderstood words in Buddhist psychology and meditation practice. There is a Tibetan term, ngé jung, which we often translate as renunciation. But renunciation conjures up exactly the detox mentality, as though it is all about letting go, distancing yourself from the bad stuff or the things that create problems.

But what that term really means, and what I think is a more accurate and helpful translation, is reorientation.

It is more about what you are turning toward than what you are letting go of or turning away from. If you forget that, it is not sustainable. It is depleting. You have nothing bringing you joy or motivating you. You have taken something away, but there is nothing there to sustain you.

This is about orienting toward something nourishing, fulfilling, and wholesome. Then the letting go becomes natural, because you are tasting an alternative that is obviously superior to the thing you let go of.

Doom scrolling versus connecting with a friend, or savoring something meaningful. Of course that feels better. You have that contrast in your mind, rather than just saying, “I’m going to let go of that,” and then what?

So maybe it is not just about letting go of endless wanting and craving. It is perhaps even more about what you like, what you savor, and what you find fulfilling.

It feels like you are giving the brain analysis of that.

Richard Davidson:That’s beautiful.

Closing (00:48:00)

Cortland Dahl:We could clearly talk a lot more about this. It feels like we just scratched the surface. We introduced a whole cast of characters with other neurotransmitters and other things, so maybe we can do more of this in future episodes.

As always, thank you so much, Richie. I learned a lot. This is super interesting, and I’m sure everybody came away with something helpful in their lives.

Thank you for everything you shared.

Richard Davidson:Thank you. Wonderful to be here.

Cortland Dahl:Stay tuned. I’m sure we’ll have many more conversations like this. If you’re still with us, thank you for watching, and we’ll see you again soon. Take care.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 31: Your Brain Is a Storyteller

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Thu, 07 May 2026 11:00:00 GMT

In this episode, Richie Davidson and Cortland Dahl deeply explore the science of the emotional brain: why the mind is a storyteller, what split-brain research reveals about consciousness, how brain asymmetry shapes emotion, why some people approach opportunity with optimism while others withdraw, and what meditation may do to the brain and immune system. Enjoy!

See below for FLASHCARDS, Full Transcript Below

Watch on Youtube; Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

FLASHCARDS / EPISODE COMPANION HERE

Podcast Chapter List

(00:00:00) – The brain is a storyteller

(00:01:03) – Welcome to Dharma Lab

(00:04:05) – Norman Geschwind and behavioral neurology

(00:06:31) – The thumbtack story: emotional memory without conscious memory

(00:12:12) – Language, the left hemisphere, and the corpus callosum

(00:19:04) – Brain asymmetry and emotion

(00:22:54) – Why emotion was so understudied

(00:29:26) – Brain asymmetry, attachment, and aversion

(00:31:19) – The prefrontal cortex and the old divide between thought and feeling

(00:37:07) – Studying emotion in newborn infants

(00:42:37) – Meditation, brain asymmetry, and the immune system

(00:47:04) – Why “it’s not so simple”

Written transcript for those who prefer to read

Lightly edited for clarity and readability.

The Brain Is a Storyteller (00:00:00)

Cortland Dahl:The example you gave earlier, with Broca’s area and the split-brain findings, points to something fascinating. Parts of the brain are not always talking to each other. One part of the brain clearly knows something, but the part that communicates doesn’t. And it doesn’t stay silent. It makes something up.

That’s the funny thing. In the absence of information, we don’t just stay silent. When we don’t know something, we are not comfortable with not knowing. Some instinctual part of us fills in the blanks almost all the time.

Richard Davidson:Exactly. The human mind and brain is a storyteller. This is how we make sense of our world. We create these narratives.

Welcome to Dharma Lab (00:01:03)

Cortland Dahl:Welcome everyone to another episode of Dharma Lab. I’m Cortland Dahl, and I’m here with Dr. Richard Davidson, who we all lovingly call Richie.

As many of you know, Richie is one of the most pioneering and widely studied neuroscientists on the planet. It’s a gift to be in conversation with him.

Today we’re going to have a conversation I’ve wanted to have for a long time. I moved to Madison, Wisconsin in 2012 to study with Richie, and over the years I’ve heard many conversations at the Center for Healthy Minds about neuroscience, meditation, and the mind. But one thing that has never really happened, even for those of us who work closely with Richie, is a kind of broad “download” from him about the amazing body of work he has contributed to over the decades.

Many people know Richie as a pioneer of contemplative science and contemplative neuroscience, the scientific study of how practices like meditation affect the mind, the brain, and our biology. But he is also a pioneer of affective neuroscience, which you might think of as the neuroscience of emotion.

To be a pioneer in one field is extraordinary. To be a pioneer in two is kind of mind-boggling.

So today I want to dig into some of those key insights, especially around neural asymmetry, which was a huge part of Richie’s early career and a central theme in affective neuroscience.

Norman Geschwind and Behavioral Neurology (00:04:05)

Richard Davidson:This topic is near and dear to my heart. It still is something I’m extremely interested in. It really began when I was a graduate student and had the opportunity to study with Norman Geschwind at Harvard Medical School.

Geschwind was one of the great towering figures in what we now call behavioral neurology. I took a course with him on functional neuroanatomy, which is basically how different parts of the brain are connected to different behavioral functions.

He was a neurologist, so he looked at people’s behavior as an external reflection of what was going on in the brain. He was an extremely keen observer of behavior, and he was also very demanding. He was what we would now call a localizationist, someone who believed in the specific localization of different functions in different parts of the brain.

He used to say that if you don’t believe in localization, it’s because you don’t know neuroanatomy well enough. That pushed me to learn neuroanatomy deeply, including doing a human brain dissection.

I also went on rounds with him, where he would visit neurological patients in the hospital. He would do these bedside exams that were incredible, using clever ways of interacting with patients to reveal what might be different about their brains.

The Thumbtack Story: Emotional Memory Without Conscious Memory (00:06:31)

Richard Davidson:One of the most famous demonstrations I saw involved a technique associated with Korsakoff, who described a syndrome of dementia related to alcoholism.

Korsakoff showed that there can be a separation between memory for declarative information and memory for emotional information.

A person with severe dementia might not recognize you if you came back the day after seeing them. They may have no conscious memory of who you are. But the question was whether the same was true for emotional information.

The demonstration was this: a doctor would put a thumbtack in his hand and shake the patient’s hand. The patient would feel the prick and withdraw. The next day, the doctor would return and ask, “Do you know who I am?” The patient would say no. The doctor would identify himself and offer his hand again.

But the patient refused to shake his hand.

When asked why, the patient confabulated. He said something like, “I think your hand is dirty, and I don’t want to shake your hand.”

That’s a beautiful demonstration of the dissociation between declarative memory and emotional memory. The declarative memory was gone. The patient did not recognize the doctor’s face or name and had no conscious memory of having seen him. But the emotional memory remained.

Cortland Dahl:That one point has huge implications for life. We often have an interpretation of something and we are completely convinced of it. It seems so real that it doesn’t occur to us that it’s an interpretation.

And yet the mind may have limited information, or may not be conscious of something, and it creates a whole story. In some cases, the story is flat-out wrong. But in the moment, it feels like reality.

Richard Davidson:Exactly. And this is not just occurring in patients with frank brain damage. This is happening in all of us all the time. This is how our minds work. The mind creates a story about the world, and it’s from that story that we operate.

It is not from some veridical perception of things in the world. There is no such thing as that. Our minds are constantly creating these stories.

This relates directly to our insight pillar of well-being, which is about the narratives we are constantly creating about ourselves.

Language, the Left Hemisphere, and the Corpus Callosum (00:12:12)

Richard Davidson:One of Geschwind’s great contributions was his work on language-related lateralization in the human brain.

In virtually all right-handed people, which is about 85 to 90 percent of the population, it is the left hemisphere that can speak, while the right hemisphere cannot.

There is a key region called Broca’s area, named after Paul Broca. Damage to this area, often through stroke, can impair a person’s ability to speak. What is interesting is that this is one of the most clearly lateralized functions in the human brain. If this area in the left hemisphere is damaged, the corresponding area in the right hemisphere does not simply take over.

The two hemispheres of the brain are very similar in many ways, but they have important differences. They are connected by the corpus callosum, a massive bundle of white matter that connects neurons in one hemisphere to corresponding neurons in the other. It is the largest pathway of connection in the human brain.

In the past, for some patients with severe epilepsy, surgeons would cut the corpus callosum to prevent seizures from spreading from one hemisphere to the other. This left people with two disconnected hemispheres.

When that happens, you can demonstrate strange dissociations. For example, if a split-brain patient is blindfolded and holds a glass in the left hand, the sensory information goes to the right hemisphere. But because the right hemisphere cannot speak, and the information cannot cross to the left hemisphere, the person may not be able to verbally identify the object. If you give them multiple-choice pictures, though, they can point to the glass.

Cortland Dahl:That’s the same basic finding. One part of the brain clearly knows something, but the part that communicates doesn’t. And it doesn’t stay silent. It makes something up.

Brain Asymmetry and Emotion (00:19:04)

Richard Davidson:Most early research on brain asymmetry focused on the back of the brain, where language and some perceptual differences were located. The left hemisphere was specialized for speech and language. The right hemisphere seemed better at certain visual-spatial skills.

But another early observation was especially interesting: when patients had damage to the left hemisphere, especially including the left prefrontal region, they were more likely to show depression after the brain damage. Two people could have comparable amounts of damage, but if the damage was in different hemispheres, the emotional consequences could be different.

That led to the conjecture that the left hemisphere might play some role in emotions that are antithetical to depression. These patients often seemed anhedonic, meaning they were not experiencing much pleasure.

There were also clinical reports of patients with right-hemisphere damage, whose left hemisphere was intact, showing inappropriate laughter or joy in situations where that would not normally occur.

These were early clues that there might be interesting emotional differences between the hemispheres.

Why Emotion Was So Understudied (00:22:54)

Richard Davidson:In those days, emotion was very understudied. Almost all the research on the brain and emotion was done in rats. It was focused mostly on the hypothalamus and basic drives like hunger and sex.

But these neurological patients were showing emotional changes from cortical damage, without frank damage to subcortical structures. That was fascinating to me.

I began thinking about ways to frame this theoretically. One important point is that asymmetries are not restricted to humans. You see asymmetries in other species. So maybe asymmetry is not fundamentally tied to language. Maybe language is one component of a deeper biological system.

There was a famous but obscure paper from 1959 by an ethologist, someone who studies animal behavior in natural environments. The paper traced approach and withdrawal behavior across the whole span of evolution, even in single-cell organisms.

The basic claim was that if an organism behaves at all, it will approach and withdraw. That is the fundamental behavioral decision an organism makes with respect to its environment.

In a moment of loose but creative insight, it occurred to me that asymmetry is a fundamental property of nervous systems, and approach and withdrawal are fundamental behavioral patterns. Maybe they are connected. Maybe the observations about depression and euphoria in brain-damaged patients had something to do with this.

Brain Asymmetry, Attachment, and Aversion (00:29:26)

Cortland Dahl:That’s fascinating from a Buddhist perspective. In Tibetan Buddhism, there is not the same kind of biological mapping, but there is an incredibly sophisticated understanding of the mind, psychology, and what is called the subtle body. Asymmetry shows up all over the place. And while the terms approach and avoidance are not used in the same way, attachment and aversion are central terms. You can see the correlation.

Richard Davidson:Yes. I’ve thought about that too. There are breathing practices, such as unilateral nostril breathing, that may differentially activate each hemisphere. There is research on that as well.

This was the beginning of my theory of brain asymmetry and its relation to approach and withdrawal, or perhaps attachment and aversion.

The Prefrontal Cortex and the Old Divide Between Thought and Feeling (00:31:19)

Richard Davidson:This was happening in the late 1970s. I became especially interested in the prefrontal cortex.

Another major influence on me was Walle Nauta, one of the great neuroanatomists of the 20th century. He was at MIT, and I took his neuroanatomy course while I was a graduate student at Harvard. His area of focus was the prefrontal cortex.

He wrote a paper called “The Frontal Lobes and the Regulation of Mood.” It was the first time I had read someone speculating that the prefrontal cortex had something to do with emotion, not just cognition.

Historically, the prefrontal cortex was thought of as part of the brain’s cognitive machinery. Emotion and cognition were often seen as separate. This was really a byproduct of a philosophical dogma: rational thought on one side, emotion and feeling on the other, with the two considered independent and often at war.

The idea that thought and feeling could be working synergistically together was not in the lexicon or imagination of scientists in those days.

Studying Emotion in Newborn Infants (00:37:07)

Richard Davidson:When we began, the only noninvasive way to study the human brain was EEG, which records electrical activity from the scalp. We began recording brain electrical activity in the prefrontal regions while trying to activate emotions associated with approach and withdrawal.

We thought that if these patterns were truly fundamental, they should appear very early in life. So we studied babies, including newborn infants.

How do you elicit emotional responses in newborns? It turns out to be pretty easy. We gave them a small squirt of sugar water, which they loved, and a small squirt of lemon juice, which produced a very different facial response.

Charles Darwin had written about facial expressions of emotion in humans and animals, and he claimed that expressions of pleasure and disgust were innate and present from birth. We tested this by recording the infants’ facial expressions and brain activity.

Even 72 hours after birth, you could clearly see different facial responses to sugar water and lemon juice. We also saw differences in brain asymmetry in the predicted direction.

There were big individual differences. People differ in their asymmetry at baseline, before you do anything.

People with greater left-sided prefrontal activation tend to be more approach-oriented. They tend to be more optimistic and ready to go when an opportunity presents itself. People with greater activation in the same regions of the right hemisphere tend to be more avoidant and shy.

Meditation, Brain Asymmetry, and the Immune System (00:42:37)

Cortland Dahl:What are the takeaways from this research? Beyond just being interesting neuroscience, how does this help us understand our own minds and navigate our inner terrain?

Richard Davidson:There are many things to say, but one concrete project led to my most highly cited scientific publication. It was published in 2003, and to the best of our knowledge, it was the first randomized controlled trial of mindfulness-based stress reduction, or MBSR, that had ever been done.

MBSR was developed by Jon Kabat-Zinn as an eight-week intervention to give people initial training in awareness practices. We studied MBSR in a group of very stressed employees at a tech company in Madison, Wisconsin.

We brought participants into the lab before and after the eight-week program and measured asymmetry in their brain. We wondered whether beginning meditators might show a shift toward more left-sided activation, which we associated with a more optimistic, approach-oriented style.

The study also happened to end around Thanksgiving, which is when many people receive flu vaccines. We asked participants not to get a flu vaccine before the study ended. Instead, we gave them the flu vaccine ourselves and took blood samples before and after, which allowed us to measure antibody response.

We hypothesized that people who went through the meditation training might show a more robust response to the vaccine.

That is what we found. People showed a greater increase in left-sided activation over the course of training, and they also showed a more robust antibody response to the flu vaccine compared to untreated controls.

At the time, these were very novel findings. The study has limitations. It was not a large sample, and the methodology was not perfect. But it was the first study of its kind.

Why “It’s Not So Simple” (00:47:04)

Richard Davidson:There is a lot more to say about asymmetry. I’ll conclude with a puzzle.

We measured brain electrical activity in very long-term practitioners who had been meditating for decades and had tens of thousands of hours of practice. They did not show extreme left prefrontal activation.

So it is not so simple.

That raised all kinds of questions about what this metric is actually reflecting. It is clearly reflecting something interesting, and it seems to be associated with early stages of meditation practice. But there may be an inverted U-shaped function, and the story is more complicated than we originally thought.

We originally thought about this in terms of approach and withdrawal, positive and negative emotion. But deeper reflection on Buddhist psychology suggests that the way we parse emotion may be imperfect.

There may be a better way to think about emotion: not simply positive versus negative, but virtuous or unvirtuous. In other words, some emotions lead us toward greater awareness, connection, insight, and purpose, while others detract from those qualities.

That gives the framework much more nuance and complexity. It became clear to us that this complexity had to be taken into account.

Closing (00:49:17)

Cortland Dahl:I think we just mapped out about ten future Dharma Lab episodes. This was fantastic.

I’ve wanted to have this conversation for a long time, just to geek out on these questions and these lines of research, because they are so fascinating and have so many implications.

I have even more questions now than when we began. I especially want to talk about the 1990s, when asymmetry caught the popular imagination through ideas like “left brain” and “right brain.” As one of the pioneers of that field, I’d love to hear how you think about the ways it was popularized, simplified, and maybe misrepresented.

But that’s another conversation.

Thank you, Richie. And thank you everyone for listening. This will not be the last conversation of this kind. Take care, and see you soon.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.30: The Dharma of Relationships with Devon + Nico Hase

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, Dr. Cortland Dahl, nico hase, and devon hase — Fri, 24 Apr 2026 11:00:00 GMT

Relationships can be one of the most powerful parts of the spiritual path because they reveal the parts of ourselves we cannot easily see alone. In this episode of Dharma Lab, Cortland Dahl and Richie Davidson are joined by meditation teachers and authors Devin and Nico Hase to explore how Buddhist practice can help us navigate love, conflict, vulnerability, appreciation, and repair. Drawing on their new book, This Messy, Gorgeous Love, they reflect on why relationships are inherently challenging, how they become mirrors for growth, and how simple practices like awareness, check-ins, and appreciation can turn partnership into a path of awakening.

Podcast Chapter List

0:00 Relationships are rough: using partnership as a spiritual path1:11 Introducing Devin and Nico Hase and This Messy, Gorgeous Love5:36 What can a monastic tradition teach us about relationships?7:05 Devin on translating Buddhist teachings into modern lay life9:53 Nico on bringing Dharma into the gritty reality of family and partnership11:29 Richie on family, feedback, and why Dharma must matter in real life15:23 Retreat, relationship, and why we can’t hide from ourselves18:04 Partners as teachers: what relationships reveal about us19:34 Nico on monastic ideals, friction, and freedom21:29 Richie on being exposed, seen, and changed by relationship22:16 Self-knowledge, co-regulation, and the dance of partnership23:36 Writing the book together and relationship as mirror25:07 Cort on intimacy, fear, and what love uncovered28:40 Relationships are rough: the myth of smooth sailing30:04 Vulnerability, exposure, and becoming resilient together31:21 Dukkha and the “bumpy ride” of partnership34:24 Appreciation, gratitude, and learning to see the good42:42 Conflict styles: volcanoes, diplomats, and dodgers52:19 The trance of nice: kindness, emotion, and authenticity55:12 Practical takeaways: check-ins, fun, and daily connection57:43 Final reflections on relationships, friendship, and the book’s wider relevance

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.29: Daniel Goleman on Practicing Before Life's Challenges

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Fri, 27 Mar 2026 11:00:00 GMT

Dr. Richie Richard Davidson, Cortland Dahl, Dan Goleman Discussion

Chapter Summary:

00:05:51 — Dan Goleman returns from India and meets Richie Davidson at Harvard00:06:38 — Studying meditation in academia when the field dismissed it00:07:11 — Their careers diverge: journalism at the New York Times and neuroscience research00:08:08 — The Mind & Life Institute and first meetings with the Dalai Lama00:09:20 — Paul Ekman’s surprising transformation after meeting the Dalai Lama00:12:03 — Richie’s quiet strategy: exposing scientists to contemplative practice00:13:09 — The birth of a new generation of contemplative scientists00:14:37 — Cort Dahl discovers meditation research in graduate school00:16:10 — Jon Kabat-Zinn teaching yoga in a Harvard Square basement00:17:35 — “The after is the before for the next during” — meditation changes baseline states00:18:43 — The breakthrough 2004 meditation brain study00:20:26 — The Dalai Lama’s lifelong assignment to study and share these practices00:21:47 — Shifting psychology from pathology to human flourishing00:26:09 — Emotional intelligence as a path to well-being00:31:16 — Why practice—not theory—is what actually changes people00:32:37 — Cort Dahl’s experience with social crisis and emotional complexity00:35:31 — The Dalai Lama’s advice on skillfully working with anger00:38:28 — Two contemplative approaches to difficult emotions00:45:24 — “Feel what you are feeling” — a simple practice that changes awareness00:46:11 — Dan Goleman on Vipassana meditation00:47:10 — Scaling well-being beyond formal meditation practice00:50:04 — Mingyur Rinpoche after retreat: “the same, only more so”

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Neuroscience & Practice discussion / takeaways from Nepal

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Fri, 20 Mar 2026 22:18:46 GMT

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DL Ep. 28: Mingyur Rinpoche - Are You Drained Or Are You Energized?

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Thu, 12 Mar 2026 11:01:00 GMT

We are so honored to welcome Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche to another episode of Dharma Lab.

In today’s conversation with Cort and Richie, Rinpoche shares practical ways to stay present in a busy life: a powerful metaphor (“time is like a rubber band”), an “inner sky” teaching for working with anxiety and emotional storms, and a simple micro-practice you can try in under a minute.

They also explore why meditation can increase energy and effectiveness, how altruistic intention can transform stress into purpose, and what early research suggests about “flourishing” rippling outward into our families, workplaces, and communities.

Podcast Chapter List:

00:00 – Mingyur Rinpoche’s “32 projects” and the secret to steady energy00:27 – Why busyness pulls the mind into past/future (and out of the present)00:55 – How stress shows up in the body 01:14 – “Time is like a rubber band”: making practice fit real life03:13 – Retreat, discipline, and why highly productive people still practice deeply05:23 – The “inner sky”: storms of emotion don’t change awareness06:25 – The airplane rule: “Put your mask on first” (service without burnout)08:24 – Altruistic motivation: practicing for the benefit of others08:53 – Richie’s 2-minute post-meditation calendar practice (be more helpful today)09:56 – “Plugging into a power source”: curiosity, insight, and wisdom as fuel10:06 – The trap of endless wants/needs—and why it’s draining10:26 – Service as nourishment: turning a busy day into a meaningful day21:11 – Doomscrolling vs. creating space for wisdom and compassion24:50 – The science question: does flourishing ripple into systems and communities?25:25 – Mexico healthcare study with Atentamente (practice in the real world)26:35 – Randomized controlled trial results: wellbeing, care outcomes, productivity28:30 – 1-minute micro-practice with Mingyur Rinpoche: connect with the wish to be happy, and expanding that intention outward: love, compassion, and shared flourishing

In case you missed it, previous conversation with Rinpoche:

Cort and Richie’s new book is coming out in a few weeks! Pre-order Born to Flourish and get:

* 1 full year of paid access to Dharma Lab ($100 value) with weekly essays, research updates, podcasts, and member-only online events

* Live access to an exclusive Born to Flourish Launch Event

* Richie and Cort’s personal reading list on the art of flourishing

* A daily protocol for training the mind to flourish

Other posts referenced in this episode:

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 27: Jon Kabat-Zinn

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Fri, 06 Mar 2026 12:00:00 GMT

Jon Kabat-Zinn joins Richie and Cort for a wide-ranging conversation on mindfulness, science, and what it means to fully inhabit your life.

From the launch of Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) in a hospital basement in 1979 to more than 1,000 scientific papers a year on mindfulness today, this episode traces how a simple practice entered mainstream medicine and reshaped the way we understand stress, healing, and human potential.

Along the way, the conversation moves from chronic pain and anxiety to awareness as a trainable capacity, the role of community, and why paying attention may be one of the most important skills of our time.

As Jon reflects, if you are missing this moment, what makes you think you will not miss the next?

This episode explores how mindfulness can extend beyond stress reduction toward living more deliberately, with clarity, compassion, and connection.

Podcast Chapter List:

00:00 – The Gateway: Stress, Burnout & Why We Come to Practice01:08 – Introducing Jon Kabat-Zinn & the Origins of MBSR05:12 – What Is Mindfulness? Dharma, Awareness & Human Potential09:07 – Why MBSR Started in a Hospital Basement18:39 – “They Gave You the Patients No One Could Help”19:58 – How Science and Contemplative Practice Came Together21:42 – The 2003 Randomized Controlled Trial That Changed the Field25:18 – Meeting People Where They Are: Anxiety as a Doorway26:28 – “Are You Your Diagnosis?” Identity & the Shift from Doing to Being30:11 – Why More People Meditate — But Many Still Struggle33:50 – Medicine for Humanity: Mindfulness in a Time of Crisis40:52 – Awareness as a Human Superpower45:00 – Flourishing Is Contagious (And Trainable)46:46 – Awe, Connection & Learning to Pay Attention47:59 – Not Missing Your Life: Thoreau, Walden, & Living Deliberately49:15 – A Rhapsody for Mindfulness

Cort and Richie’s new book is coming out in a few weeks! Pre-order Born to Flourish and get:

* 1 full year of paid access to Dharma Lab ($100 value) with weekly essays, research updates, podcasts, and member-only online events

* Live access to an exclusive Born to Flourish Launch Event

* Richie and Cort’s personal reading list on the art of flourishing

* A daily protocol for training the mind to flourish

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.26: Four Science-Backed Skills to Deal with Anxiety

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 24 Feb 2026 12:00:00 GMT

Flourishing is multi-dimensional. In today’s episode of Dharma Lab, we apply the four dimensions of flourishing (awareness, connection, insight, and purpose), to something we all experience: anxiety.

When these skills are at our fingertips, we can deploy different ones in different contexts, or bring several to bear at once. Together, they form a rich set of practices to enhance well-being in everyday life.

Our discussion explores anxiety as an evolutionary feature of the human brain rather than a personal defect; how it is rooted in the brain’s tendency to predict potential threats; and how it may reflect something fundamentally wholesome: a drive to protect and care.

Podcast Chapter List:

00:00 – Short-Circuiting Resistance: A New Way to Relate to Anxiety01:03 – Why Anxiety Is Normal (And Even Necessary)04:29 – The Brain as a Prediction Machine06:16 – Anxiety as an Evolutionary Safety System10:05 – The Four Dimensions of Flourishing12:12 – Skill #1: Awareness and Mindfulness in Moments of Anxiety16:26 – Acceptance and the Reduction of Resistance19:05 – Meta-Awareness and What Happens in the Brain20:31 – Making Friends With Anxiety22:18 – Skill #2: Connection and Appreciation24:12 – Common Humanity and the “Just Like Me” Practice26:06 – Kindness as a Regulator of Emotion29:16 – Skill #3: Insight Into Beliefs and Expectations33:32 – Recognizing Anxious Thought Patterns in Real Time36:58 – Skill #4: Purpose as a Buffer Against Stress37:30 – Research on Teachers, Purpose, and Recovery41:17 – Turning Struggle Into Fuel for Service43:15 – Purpose and Physiological Recovery45:04 – Why These Four Skills Work Together47:17 – Applying the Four Dimensions to Everyday Anxiety

Our new book is coming out next month! Pre-order Born to Flourish and get:

* Live access to an exclusive Born to Flourish Launch Event

* Richie and Cort’s personal reading list on the art of flourishing

* A daily protocol for training the mind to flourish

* 1-year paid membership to Dharma Lab with weekly essays, research updates, podcasts, and member-only online events

From the archives:

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep 25: Flourishing is Contagious

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 17 Feb 2026 12:00:00 GMT

In this episode of Dharma Lab, Cort and Richie explore one of the core ideas behind Born to Flourish: that our inner state doesn’t stay inside. It ripples outward…shaping classrooms, workplaces, families, and even measurable outcomes like student achievement.

Through personal stories and groundbreaking research from public schools, they unpack how awareness, connection, insight, and purpose don’t just transform individuals, they transform systems.

Podcast chapter list:

00:00 – Intro: Can Flourishing Be Contagious? (Neuroscience + Real-World Impact)01:23 – The Dalai Lama at NIH: Compassion in Action06:49 – Why This Moment Changed Science Leaders Forever09:52 – Is Compassion Trainable? The Science of Human Plasticity15:30 – A Workplace Story: How Kindness Transformed a Toxic Boss19:45 – The Neuroscience of Contagion: How Emotions Spread23:50 – 850 Teachers, Randomized Trial using the Healthy Minds App26:42 – The “Holy Grail” Finding: Improved Student Test Scores28:01 – Interdependence Explained: Why We’re Not Separate30:31 – How One Teacher’s Mindset Changes an Entire Classroom31:56 – “Buy One, Get Two Free”: The Ripple Effect of Wellbeing32:17 – Practical Habit #1: Intentionally “Infect” Others with Kindness34:30 – Practical Habit #2: Curate Your Mental Inputs35:53 – Why It’s Easier Than You Think (And Why the World Needs It)

Our new book is coming out next month! Pre-order Born to Flourish and get:

* Live access to an exclusive Born to Flourish Launch Event

* Richie and Cort’s personal reading list on the art of flourishing

* A daily protocol for training the mind to flourish

* 1-year paid membership to Dharma Lab with weekly essays, research updates, podcasts, and member-only online events

From the archives:

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.24: Born to Flourish - The Science of Human Potential

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Mon, 09 Feb 2026 12:00:00 GMT

Reminder: Join Richie & Cort tonight at 8pm ET for our monthly AMA HERE

In today’s episode of Dharma Lab, Cort and Richie explore a radical and hopeful idea from their upcoming book Born to Flourish: that we all come into the world with an innate capacity for kindness, compassion, and human flourishing. Through personal stories, recent science, and ancient Buddhist wisdom, they reveal how reconnecting with our true nature can transform not only ourselves but also our divided world.

“It’s probably more important today than at any other time in my life to really affirm this statement: that we are born to flourish. And this isn’t vacuous hope—it’s hope grounded in practice and in science.” - Dr. Richard Davidson

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EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

* Cort shares a heartwarming memory of teaching his three-year-old son about “Buddha nature” and the pure joy it sparked in him

* Richie presents stunning research showing that 100% of six-month-old babies naturally prefer kindness over meanness - scientific proof we’re wired for goodness

* How Buddhist psychology teaches that suffering often stems from forgetting our fundamental wholeness and getting trapped in limiting (and changing) identities

* Practical tips for daily life: seeing the Buddha nature in others during interactions, practicing “just like me” reflections, and shifting from a “fixing” mindset to appreciating what’s already whole

* How viewing harmful behavior as arising from confusion rather than fundamental evil can transform rage into compassion, even toward difficult public figures

* A powerful reminder that flourishing isn’t just a belief system—it’s a practice of actually seeing ourselves, others, and the world differently

Our new book is coming out next month! Pre-order Born to Flourish and get:

* Live access to an exclusive Born to Flourish Launch Event

* Richie and Cort’s personal reading list on the art of flourishing

* A daily protocol for training the mind to flourish

* 1-year paid membership to Dharma Lab with weekly essays, research updates, podcasts, and member-only online events

From the archives:

Podcast Chapter List

00:00 – Are We Really Born to Flourish?Why this claim matters more now than ever—and why it’s grounded in science, not blind optimism.

01:23 – Welcome to Dharma Lab + Introducing Born to FlourishCortland Dahl and Richard Davidson outline the science, meditation, and practical focus of the episode.

02:14 – A Father–Son Meditation StoryHow meditating with a three-year-old reveals something essential about human nature.

03:37 – What Is “Buddha Nature”?The idea that our true nature is fundamentally whole, good, and already present.

05:16 – Why “Born to Flourish” Sounds Radical TodayAddressing skepticism in a world shaped by violence, polarization, and fear.

06:26 – The Science of Kindness in InfantsHow six-month-old babies consistently choose kindness over harm.

10:05 – What 100% Results Tell Us About Human NatureWhy these findings are almost unheard of in psychology research.

11:00 – Buddhist Psychology and the Problem of IdentityHow misunderstanding who we are fuels stress, burnout, and suffering.

12:24 – The “Blind Spot”: What We Miss About OurselvesWhy changing thoughts, roles, and emotions aren’t our deepest identity.

13:33 – Awareness as the Constant Background of ExperienceWhy awareness, compassion, and wisdom may be innate rather than cultivated.

14:38 – Why the Brain Fixates on the NegativeHow rarity, contrast, and media bias distort our perception of reality.

16:07 – Tragedy, Memory, and What We RememberHow emotionally charged events dominate our personal narratives.

17:29 – Daniel Kahneman’s Peak-End RuleWhy we remember peaks and endings—and how this shapes well-being.

19:47 – Fixing Ourselves vs. Rediscovering WholenessThe difference between self-improvement and recognizing what’s already here.

22:24 – The Fruitional Approach to MeditationWhy flourishing isn’t in the future—and why practice can feel easier than expected.

25:11 – Everyday Practices That Reveal Our True NatureUsing meetings, meals, and daily life as opportunities for practice.

27:43 – “Just Like Me”: A Practice for CompassionHow remembering our shared humanity changes relationships.

33:36 – Seeing Harm Through the Lens of Confusion, Not EvilWhy this perspective naturally gives rise to compassion without excusing harm.

36:10 – Why the World Needs This Perspective ShiftReconnecting with common humanity in divided times—and what’s coming next.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

AMA#5 Navigating Neuroplasticity, Non-Dual Awareness, and the Neuroscience of Flourishing

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Thu, 05 Feb 2026 12:03:57 GMT

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.dharmalab.co

Reminder: Our Next Live Ask Me Anything (#6) with Richie and Cort will be on Feb 9th at 8pm ET. Please send questions in advance! (in comments, chat, or reply to this email)

Why Listen to This Session?

In our latest wide-ranging AMA, Richie and Cort explore:

* Your brain can change at any age — but plasticity isn’t always good:to answer a popular question inspired by Huberman: yes, neuroplasticity lasts from birth to death (even near the very end of life). But here’s the twist: plasticity is neutral. Without the right conditions, it can reinforce anxiety, anger, or stress. The AMA explains how to pair plasticity with wholesome habits so change actually supports well-being

* How meditation can literally rewrite emotional memories: a detailed walkthrough of memory reconsolidation, the neuroscience of why retrieved memories become editable, and a practical technique you can use at bedtime

* Discover what happens in the brain during non-dual awareness: cutting-edge research on why advanced meditators show dramatic drops in prediction networks, and the crucial difference between practices that focus on experience versus practices that orient to awareness itself

* Flourishing is contagious: A firsthand account of meeting a 90-year-old Tibetan master who radiates unconditional love after surviving 20 years in Chinese prison camps

Detailed Chapter Guide

00:00 - Opening Meditation & New Year Intentions

Brief guided meditation to open hearts and set collective aspiration for easing suffering and supporting flourishing worldwide.

02:00 - New Year Reflections: Small Steps, Daily Affordances

Richie discusses why New Year’s resolutions fail and introduces the concept of “affordances”: everyday contexts that can trigger practice moments. The importance of small steps repeated consistently rather than unrealistic grand plans.

06:00 - Contagious Flourishing: Meeting Garchen Rinpoche

Cort shares a powerful experience meeting 90-year-old Garchen Rinpoche in Arizona, a living example of boundless love cultivated through decades of practice, even surviving 20 years in Chinese prison camps. A visceral reminder that flourishing spreads through presence alone.

14:00 - Neuroplasticity Across the Lifespan

Q: Does brain plasticity continue after age 25? Richie explains that plasticity persists from birth to death, with sensitive periods (birth, ages 4-7, adolescence) showing heightened susceptibility. The critical point: plasticity is neutral and requires wholesome focus to support flourishing.

20:00 - Buddhist Psychology Meets Neuroscience

Cort connects neuroplasticity to the Buddhist concept of “bardo,” transitional periods when habitual patterns are disrupted. Why adversity often catalyzes the deepest growth, and the dual path of accumulating wisdom and creating supportive conditions.

25:00 - Memory Reconsolidation: Editing Emotional Memories

Q: Can we heal trauma from infancy if we don’t remember how it formed? Richie explains how retrieved memories become temporarily fluid and re-encodable, the scientific basis for therapeutic change.

29:00 - Practical Memory Reconsolidation: The Bedtime Argument

Detailed walkthrough of how to work with a difficult memory using reconsolidation principles: bringing positive associations to the same person during retrieval creates lasting change in how that memory is stored.

34:00 - Different Practices, Different Reconsolidation Effects

How loving-kindness changes associations versus how awareness practices create space for memories to dissolve. Mingyur Rinpoche’s “cow dung” teaching as a metaphor for memory malleability.

37:00 - Education: Declarative vs. Procedural Learning

Q: How does modern education impact neuroplasticity in children? The Western bias toward declarative (conceptual) learning versus procedural (skill-based) learning. Richie’s call for more practice-based education.

40:00 - The Surprising Value of Memorization

Cort’s counterintuitive defense of traditional monastic memorization practices: how deep encoding creates attentional laser-focus and transforms understanding in ways that passive learning cannot.

44:00 - Giving, Receiving, and the Reward System

Q: Is giving more rewarding than receiving at all ages? Richie confirms the data supports this across the lifespan, though strength may vary by developmental stage.

45:00 - The Science of Non-Dual Awareness

Q: What happens in the brain during non-dual experiences? Cort explains non-dual consciousness as the “open sky” versus the “weather patterns” of sensory experience, orienting to awareness itself rather than its contents.

50:00 - The Brain as Prediction Machine

Richie’s hypothesis: non-dual awareness may involve releasing prediction entirely. Evidence shows dramatic decreases in prefrontal activation in long-term practitioners during tasks that normally activate prediction networks.

54:00 - Subject-Oriented vs. Object-Oriented Practice

Q: What’s the difference between focusing on breath versus connecting with awareness itself? Cort unpacks this crucial distinction from their published research paper.

56:00 - Two Paths of Insight

Object-oriented practices reveal the conditioned, changing nature of experience. Subject-oriented practices reveal the unconditioned, spacious nature of awareness, leading to emptiness and non-dual realization. Different practices, radically different destinations.

59:00 - Brain Connectivity Patterns in Different Practice Types

Richie explains how object-oriented practices strengthen connections between awareness regions and sensory regions, while subject-oriented practices strengthen awareness networks and salience networks differently.

1:01:00 - Closing Reflections & New Year Wishes

Final thoughts, gratitude for the community’s questions, and wishes for health, peace, and flourishing in the year ahead.

For the technical deep-dive referenced in this session, see Davidson & Dahl’s paper: “Reconstructing and Deconstructing the Self: Cognitive Mechanisms in Meditation Practice” in Trends in Cognitive Sciences.

Our new book is coming out next month! Pre-order Born to Flourish and get:

* Live access to an exclusive Born to Flourish Launch Event

* Richie and Cort’s personal reading list on the art of flourishing

* A daily protocol for training the mind to flourish

* 1-year paid membership to Dharma Lab with weekly essays, research updates, podcasts, and member-only online events

From the archives:

DL Ep. 23: David Yeager on Parenting Teens: What the Adolescent Brain Really Needs

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 27 Jan 2026 12:00:00 GMT

Parenting teens is hard. We often fall into styles that feel protective but end up making things worse. In our latest Dharma Lab episode, Dr. David Yeager, a leading researcher on adolescent motivation and author of 10 to 25, talks with Richie and Cort about why this happens and how to change it. We also explore the neuroscience of adolescent brains, and how the parenting strategies discussed can mirror how we relate to our own inner experience.

Key concepts from the episode:

* Most parents default to one of two styles (and not the one we need to start embracing more called the “mentor”)

* Enforcer: high demands, low support (“toughen up,” “no excuses”)

* Protector: high empathy, low expectations (removing challenges to avoid distress)Both come from love, and both can unintentionally shut teens down.

* What teens are actually wired to needAdolescents are especially driven by pride, dignity, and respect…and deeply averse to humiliation or shame. When they feel talked down to, they stop listening.

* Why this stage is uniquely hard right nowPuberty is starting earlier than ever, while the brain systems that support emotional regulation won’t fully mature until the mid-20s. This widening gap makes misfires more likely for teens and parents.

* The problem with “grownsplaining”When adults assume their experience makes them the unquestioned expert, teens hear disrespect; even when advice is well-intentioned. That dynamic fuels resistance rather than growth.

* The mentor mindset offers a different pathHigh standards with real support. Less lecturing, more curiosity. Asking questions instead of delivering answers. Allowing discomfort without removing expectations.

* Discomfort isn’t always a sign something is wrongAnxiety, frustration, and even tears can mean a young person is stretching toward something meaningful - not failing. What matters is whether distress comes with support or shame.

* Small tools that make a big difference

* Do-overs: repairing moments when we miss the mark without lowering standards

* Reframing stress: helping kids interpret nerves as a sign of doing something important

* Letting kids resolve conflicts: building independence instead of reflexively intervening

* A surprising takeaway for parentsHow we relate to our children’s struggles often mirrors how we relate to our own inner discomfort. Learning to be a mentor to ourselves matters too.

Some quotes from the discussion:

“I, with a smart adult brain who has survived to at least right now, I must know what I’m doing. And therefore the contents of my logic and reasoning must be accurate and trustworthy... So now I’m just going to export the contents of my thoughts into your ill-formed brain.” - Dr. Yeager affectionately summarizes the prevailing parenting logic.

“What we’re seeing today is really the first time in human history where there’s this really expanded gap between the onset of puberty and the onset of neural mechanisms that facilitate the regulation of emotion, the regulation of thought.” - Richie

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David’s Book 10-25

Complimentary episodes from the archives:

* Real change depends on context, support, and how we relate to difficulty…not sheer discipline:

* What happens when the mind gets stuck, and how curiosity rather than suppression helps us regain agency:

* A deeper look at reflection; not as rumination, but as a skill that helps people learn from experience:

* Why insight changes us, and how it reshapes behavior more effectively than instruction:

Podcast Chapter List:

00:00 – Intro: Why parenting teens affects our own wellbeingWhen things aren’t going well with young people, it deeply impacts parents and caregivers.

01:15 – “Grownsplaining”: why teens stop listeningHow adult certainty and lecturing can feel disrespectful — and shut kids down.

03:35 – Why parents feel stuck between bad optionsControl, lecturing, or stepping back — why none of these approaches really work.

05:45 – What teens are wired to need: dignity and respectWhy shame and being talked down to trigger resistance instead of growth.

08:40 – The puberty–brain gap (why this stage is harder than ever)Puberty is starting earlier, while emotion-regulation circuits mature much later.

11:00 – Parenting styles that backfire: enforcer vs protectorHigh demands with no support — or empathy with no expectations — and why both miss the mark.

13:05 – The mentor mindset: high standards with real supportWhat effective parents, teachers, and coaches do differently.

15:00 – Letting kids work through conflict (stop refereeing)Why solving problems for kids undermines independence and learning.

17:00 – The NBA shooting coach example: how real learning happensWhy elite coaches don’t over-instruct — and how asking “How did that feel?” builds internal guidance.

18:10 – Reframing stress: butterflies mean something mattersHelping teens reinterpret anxiety as readiness, not failure.

22:30 – Why suppressing emotions backfiresWhat kids learn when adults rush to stop tears, anger, or discomfort.

26:30 – Parenting teens mirrors how we treat our own discomfortHow enforcer and protector styles show up in our inner lives too.

30:10 – Mindset science: how meaning shapes motivationFrom growth mindset to stress reappraisal — why interpretation matters.

34:00 – Why teens remember respect (and forget lectures)How wise interventions actually stick over time.

39:45 – Changing the adults, not just the kidsWhy environments and expectations matter as much as individual mindset.

44:30 – Final reflections: mentorship as a lifelong practiceHelping teens grow — and learning to be mentors to ourselves.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.22: The Neuroscience of “Aha” Moments

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 20 Jan 2026 12:00:00 GMT

We’ve all had moments when something suddenly clicks. A realization that doesn’t arrive gradually, but all at once. Cort remembers walking out of a movie theater on a humid summer night after seeing Schindler’s List, suddenly knowing what his life should be about. Richie recalls preparing for a talk that sparked an entirely new way of thinking about neuroplasticity and the social brain.

In this episode, we explore what those “aha” moments really are, why they feel so emotionally charged, and how they can reshape the course of our lives.

Drawing on a fascinating neuroscience study, we look at what happens in the brain when insight arises—and why these moments are remembered so vividly days later. We also reflect on how insight and wisdom once sat at the center of human flourishing—from Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle to Buddhist psychology—yet are largely absent from modern models of wellbeing. In fact, as Richie points out:

“No current model of psychological well-being that is in the psychological research literature includes insight, except for the model that we’ve developed.” Dr. Richard Davidson, Dharma Lab Ep.22, speaking about The Healthy Minds Framework

This leads to a deeper question we explore together: What if insight isn’t rare…but simply unnoticed, forgotten, or unsupported in daily life?

Episode Highlights

* Why what we feed our minds matters: the raw materials of insight come from the conversations we have, what we watch and read…but only if we create space to digest

* How we likely have many insights each day but lose them in distraction; and how contemplative practice acts like a glass enclosure around a candle, helping us notice, remember, and stabilize insights before they flicker out

* Why psychedelics are often effective at igniting insight, but not always at helping it become a durable way of seeing

* Why insight is deeply emotional, not just intellectual

* The difference between a fleeting epiphany and a lasting shift in how we experience life

If you enjoy these topics, check out our new book Born to Flourish, available for pre-order (arrives March 2026).

DL Ep.21: The Neuroscience of Conscious Habits

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 13 Jan 2026 12:00:00 GMT

On today’s episode of Dharma Lab, we take a closer look at the mechanics of healthy habit formation.

Building on a framework we’ve outlined in previous posts—inspiration, intention, action, and repetition—we explore why each step matters from a scientific perspective, and how the process tends to break down in real life.

Discussion Highlights:

* How monks we encountered in Nepal had trained habits by way of intense practice

* Why exceptional capacities are built through training and practice, not innate talent

* How small, repeatable actions strengthen the executive network so we are “in the driver’s seat” of our mind, emotions, and impulses

* The distinction between unconscious habits and consciously trained habits

* A neuroscience-informed framework for habit formation: inspiration, intention, action, and repetition

* Where habits most often break down, and how to use moments of everyday life as affordances for practice

* Malcolm Gladwell’s framework for exceptional performance: Practice, Practice, Practice, and starting at small levels daily to achieve a compounding rate

* How Flourishing is contagious

If you enjoy this topic, there will a whole chapter devoted to it in our upcoming book Born to Flourish (available for pre-order now, arriving March 2026). We will deep dive into the 4 stages of developing conscious habits - inspiration, intention, action, repetition. A framework as a recipe to develop a conscious habit.

Recent Posts:

From the Archives:

Podcast Chapter List:

00:00 – Intro: The “Tomorrow” Trap of ProcrastinationWhy inspiration so often gets postponed — and how habits stall before they begin

02:20 – What Meditation Masters & Peak Performers Have in CommonPractice, not talent: how extraordinary people are trained, not born

04:55 – How Small Daily Practices Change the BrainNeuroscience shows even 5 minutes a day can create measurable change

06:10 – What Are “Conscious Habits”?The difference between automatic habits and habits built with awareness

08:45 – The Four Stages of Building HabitsInspiration → Intention → Action → Repetition (a science-backed framework)

10:20 – Inspiration: Finding the Spark That Sustains ChangeWhy inspiration must be renewed — not assumed

13:10 – Intention: Turning Vision Into a Clear PlanWhy vague goals fail and specificity matters for habit formation

16:00 – Action: Why Small Steps Beat Big PlansLetting go of grandiosity and taking one doable step now

18:50 – Repetition: How Habits Rewire the Brain“Neurons that fire together wire together” — the science of consistency

22:05 – Why Habits Often Collapse (Even When We Care)Busyness, breaks in routine, and the missing role of inspiration

24:40 – Using Everyday Life as an Affordance for PracticeHow brushing your teeth or doing chores can become training moments

27:10 – The Neuroscience of Flourishing as a SkillWhy wellbeing isn’t circumstantial — it’s trainable

30:00 – From Autopilot to the Driver’s Seat of the MindHow conscious habits strengthen emotional regulation and awareness

33:20 – Final Reflections: Practicing Wisely, Not Forcing ChangeWhy flourishing grows through patience, repetition, and care

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 20: Why Willpower Isn’t Enough - The Neuroscience of Sustainable Change

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Tue, 06 Jan 2026 12:00:00 GMT

REMINDER: Live Q&A with Richie and Cort TODAY at 8pm ET on Substack.

Over the next two weeks on Dharma Lab, we’ll be exploring the science and practice of meaningful change—why it so often breaks down, and how small, intentional habits can gradually reshape how we live.

In today’s episode, we explore a key insight from neuroscience and psychology: our behavior is shaped less by willpower than by the affordances around us—the cues, routines, relationships, and environments that quietly invite certain actions while discouraging others.

Rather than asking why we “lack discipline,” we look at how everyday contexts—from our physical surroundings to the people we spend time with—continually nudge our habits, often outside of awareness. When those affordances stay the same, even the strongest resolutions tend to fade.

We also explore a more hopeful possibility: that working with affordances doesn’t have to feel rigid or effortful. Approached with curiosity, it can be creative—even fun. Experimenting with small changes, playful rituals, and supportive friendships can turn habit-building from a struggle into something that feels alive and sustainable.

Next week, we’ll continue the conversation:

* discussing conscious habits, and

* the four steps make flourishing a habit: Inspiration, Intention, Action, and Repetition. You can read more about these in our recent post, as well in our upcoming book Born to Flourish (available for pre-order now, arriving March 2026).

Recent Posts:

Podcast Chapter List:

00:00 – Approaching New Habits with Curiosity and CreativityWhy motivation fades, even when intentions are sincere — and why willpower alone isn’t enough.

01:00 – Introducing Dharma Lab & the Science of Habit ChangeDr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl on the neuroscience and contemplative science of lasting behavior change.

02:35 – A Daily Ritual for Motivation (Bodhicitta Practice)Why small rituals help anchor habits — and why remembering to begin is often the hardest part.

04:15 – The Brain Is Sensitive to ContextHow habits are shaped less by intention and more by environment.

05:20 – What Are “Affordances” in Neuroscience?Why cues in your environment quietly drive behavior — often outside awareness.

06:45 – Why Changing Intention Isn’t EnoughWhy resolutions fail when the environment stays the same.

07:40 – Causes and Conditions: A Buddhist Psychology ViewWhy behavior change depends on assembling the right conditions, not forcing outcomes.

09:00 – Practical Example: Supporting Healthy EatingHow what we listen to, read, and talk about reinforces or undermines habits.

10:00 – Small Steps Repeated Many TimesWhy modest, sustainable habits outperform dramatic transformations.

11:20 – The “Too Much, Too Fast” ProblemWhy ambitious resolutions (like 45-minute meditations) rarely last.

12:45 – Designing a Baseline You Can SustainHow to choose habits that are “almost too easy” — and why that works.

14:00 – Planning for Lapses (The Road Goes Up and Down)Why setbacks are not failure — and how awareness means the practice is working.

15:30 – Working with Low Motivation & the DipWhy the real practice happens when motivation disappears.

16:00 – Impermanence & MotivationWhy planning for fluctuating motivation is the wise approach.

17:20 – Three Core Principles for Lasting Habits

* Create supportive conditions

* Take small, repeatable steps

* Plan for difficulty and setbacks

18:20 – Curiosity, Patience, and Creative Habit DesignWhy approaching change with lightness and curiosity makes it sustainable.

19:50 – Everyday Life as PracticeHow meals, exercise, chores, and daily routines can become training for awareness and compassion.

22:10 – Turning Mundane Activities into MindfulnessWhy boredom itself can become interesting — and transformative.

24:10 – Feeding the Mind: What We Consume Shapes HabitsHow reading, listening, and information diets support long-term change.

25:30 – The Power of Community & Social SupportWhy habits rarely last without relationships that reinforce them.

27:15 – Closing Reflections & What’s Next on Dharma LabPreview of upcoming episodes and the habit-change model from Born to Flourish.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

Recording of AMA #4 with Dr. Richie Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Fri, 02 Jan 2026 12:02:51 GMT

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.dharmalab.co

Thank you to those who tuned into our 4th live video with Dr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl! Join us for our next live AMA on Tuesday, Jan 6 at 8pm ET / 7pm CT.

The discussion covered a lot of ground not limited to: Brain activity during meditation, Expectations / Non-attachment, Neuroscience of desire, Journaling + Meditation, Meditation dosage…

DL Ep. 19: The Science of Self-Reflection

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 30 Dec 2025 12:02:00 GMT

At certain moments in life — the end of a day, the completion of a project, or the turn of a year — we naturally begin to reflect.

But without intention, self-reflection can quietly slide into rumination, self-judgment, and stress.

In this episode of Dharma Lab, we explore the science of self-reflection: why it’s such a uniquely human capacity, how it supports learning, empathy, and wellbeing — and why it so often goes off the rails.

Drawing on neuroscience, contemplative practice, and lived experience, we explore how self-reflection can be guided by intention rather than left on automatic — and how moments of awareness restore the capacity to steer the mind.

Episode Highlights:

In this conversation, we explore:

* Why self-reflection is one of the most unique — and potentially troublesome — capacities of the human mind

* How the prefrontal cortex enables “mental time travel” into the past and future

* The difference between healthy reflection and toxic rumination

* How stress impairs intentionality and leaves the mind running on autopilot

* Why curiosity and intention are key ingredients in constructive self-reflection

* The role of meta-awareness in restoring choice and flexibility

* How perspective-taking supports empathy and compassion

* Why self-reflection is central to psychotherapy, learning, and creativity

* How analytical meditation trains reflection without losing awareness

* Simple ways to practice healthy self-reflection in daily life

In the coming weeks, we’ll continue exploring how reflection, when held skillfully, can begin to shape the habits and patterns that guide our lives.

We’d love to hear from you: What are ways you’ve learned and grown over the past year? What methods help you engage in self-reflection in a positive way?

Warmly,

Cort + Richie

As you reflect on the year, consider our recent post on turning resolutions into habits:

From the Archives:

Podcast Chapter List:

00:00 — Why Self-Reflection Is Uniquely HumanHumans’ unparalleled capacity for self-reflection — and how it can help or harm us.

01:53 — Natural Moments of ReflectionWhy reflection arises at transitions: days, projects, and years.

02:23 — When Self-Reflection Goes Off the RailsHow reflection turns into self-judgment, negativity, and rumination.

03:27 — The Neuroscience of Mental Time TravelThe prefrontal cortex and our ability to reflect on the past and imagine the future.

05:35 — When Reflection Becomes RuminationHow negative reflection hijacks the mind.

06:11 — The Salience Network and Emotional “Charge”Why rumination activates threat circuitry in the brain and body.

07:30 — Self-Reflection as an Umbrella TermWhy healthy and toxic reflection can feel radically different.

09:23 — Intentionality: The Missing IngredientHow lack of intention leads to runaway mental loops.

10:48 — Curiosity vs. Judgment in Self-InquiryWhat distinguishes healthy reflection from toxic rumination.

12:03 — Stress, the Prefrontal Cortex, and Habitual MindWhy stress shuts down intentional control.

13:10 — The Sailboat Without a RudderA metaphor for the mind on autopilot.

14:11 — Meta-Awareness: Finding the RudderWhy awareness of awareness is the starting point.

15:16 — Everyday Examples of Meta-AwarenessReading, driving, and the moment we “wake up.”

17:05 — Flexibility and the ‘Eye of the Storm’What continuous meta-awareness feels like in daily life.

18:43 — Expanding the Aperture of AwarenessHow presence widens experience rather than narrowing it.

20:46 — Why Meta-Awareness Enables ChangeWhy we can’t change the mind without knowing what it’s doing.

22:15 — The Benefits of Healthy Self-ReflectionWhy reflection is central to therapy, recovery, and growth.

23:42 — Perspective-Taking and EmpathyHow reflection helps us see beyond our own viewpoint.

24:48 — Training Empathy Through ReflectionCort’s retreat experience and learning to take other perspectives.

28:31 — Why the World Needs This Skill NowSelf-reflection, polarization, and social division.

29:06 — Building on Innate CapacitiesWhy these qualities are already within us.

29:33 — Small Moments, Not RetreatsHow to practice reflection in everyday life.

30:12 — Curiosity as a Driving ForceBecoming a student of your own mind.

31:13 — Analytical Meditation and the Dalai LamaIntentional self-reflection as a contemplative practice.

33:58 — Combining Awareness and ReflectionWhy this combination is “magical” for daily life.

34:36 — Closing Reflections and A Question for YouInviting healthy reflection at year’s end: “What have I learned this year? How have I grown?”

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 18: The Neuroscience of Giving

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 23 Dec 2025 12:01:00 GMT

In this episode of Dharma Lab, we explore the neuroscience and contemplative practice of what it means to truly give.

Recorded in the middle of the holiday season, our conversation begins with a familiar arc many of us recognize: the childhood excitement of receiving, and the gradual (and sometimes surprising) shift toward the deeper satisfaction of giving. Together, we explore what’s really happening beneath that shift, psychologically, biologically, and experientially.

Drawing on neuroscience, Buddhist contemplative traditions, and lived experience, we discuss:

* Why giving leads to more sustained well-being than receiving

* How generosity cultivates an inner sense of abundance rather than scarcity

* What the brain reveals about extraordinary altruists, and their ability to detect suffering

* How generosity is a trainable capacity

* How small, everyday acts — including giving your full attention — can become powerful micro-practices

Discussion Highlights

From Getting to Giving

As we grow older, the thrill of receiving often fades, while the joy of giving deepens. Neuroscience helps explain why: the brain rapidly adapts to getting what we want, returning us to baseline, while the “warm glow” of giving tends to linger.

Giving and the Brain

Across many studies, people instructed to spend money on others consistently report greater and longer-lasting increases in happiness than those who spend the same amount on themselves. We also discuss how our brains are prediction machines, and receiving tends to meet expectations and quickly normalizes; whereas giving often involves situations with a higher discrepancy between what you predict and what actually happens.

Extraordinary Altruists and the Detection of Suffering

We explore research on “extraordinary altruists” — people who donate a kidney to a stranger — who show heightened sensitivity in brain systems involved in detecting suffering. Compassion, it turns out, may begin less with moral reasoning and more with perception.

In contrast, psychopathy appears to involve reduced sensitivity to others’ suffering — not necessarily cruelty, but a kind of blindness. This comparison reframes generosity not as virtue versus vice, but as a capacity that exists along a spectrum and can be cultivated.

Generosity as an Inner State

In Buddhist psychology, generosity is defined less by outward action than by an inner sense of abundance. Fixation on getting reinforces scarcity; giving evokes the feeling that there is enough to share. That inner shift may be one reason generosity is so nourishing.

The Gift of Attention

One of the simplest and most powerful forms of giving is attention. Putting the phone away. Listening without planning a response. Being fully present, even briefly. Attention communicates care — and people feel it as a gift.

Micro-Practices of Giving

Generosity doesn’t require dramatic acts. We explore small, repeatable practices: doing routine tasks as acts of service, offering presence in everyday interactions, reframing ordinary moments as opportunities to give. Over time, these micro-practices can turn generosity from a fleeting state into a stable trait.

Counterintuitive Practices: Tonglen

We also discuss tonglen, the Tibetan practice of breathing in others’ suffering and breathing out care. Though counterintuitive, practitioners often report feeling stronger, less fearful, and more abundant. Rather than depleting us, generosity appears to dissolve deep fears of inner poverty.

Flourishing Is Contagious

When we cultivate generosity — even briefly — it changes how we show up. Those changes ripple outward, influencing relationships, families, and communities. As we like to say: flourishing is infectious.

A Simple Invitation

Rather than asking how much you can give, we invite a quieter question:

Where can generosity enter your day — through attention, presence, or small acts of care?

Warmly,Cort & Richie

Podcast Chapter List

00:00 – Opening reflections: from receiving to giving01:45 – Childhood memories and the holiday shift toward generosity03:15 – Why giving feels more nourishing than getting05:10 – Abundance vs. scarcity as inner states07:00 – Giving as a contemplative practice09:10 – Flourishing is contagious11:00 – Micro-practices and everyday generosity12:40 – Attention as a gift14:20 – Research on giving and sustained well-being17:00 – A personal story of generosity and the “warm glow”20:00 – Prediction, expectation, and why pleasure fades22:15 – Tonglen: the counterintuitive power of giving25:30 – Detecting suffering and compassion27:00 – Extraordinary altruists and amygdala sensitivity29:30 – Psychopathy, blindness to suffering, and compassion32:00 – Plasticity: generosity as a trainable capacity34:30 – Compassion without overwhelm37:00 – Rituals of giving in daily life39:30 – Imagination and generosity practices 41:30 – Dedication and carrying generosity into the world42:30 – Closing reflections

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 17: Trauma, Memory, and the Brain's Capacity to Change

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 16 Dec 2025 12:00:00 GMT

REMINDER: Live Q&A with Richie and Cort TODAY at 7pm ET on Substack.

Why do certain memories feel like they still live in our bodies years after they happened? And why do some difficult experiences become turning points for growth while others leave us feeling stuck?

In this episode, we explore the neuroscience of trauma and the contemplative tools that help us reshape old emotional patterns. A central part of our discussion is the role of plasticity in both trauma and healing:

“Trauma wouldn’t happen if there wasn’t plasticity. The same quality that allows experience to wound us also allows us to heal.”

We look at how emotional memories are encoded in the brain, why they can resurface with such force, and how memory reconsolidation creates a natural opening for change each time a memory returns. We also share a powerful experience from a recent meditation retreat, where a long buried emotional imprint surfaced and released through simple, spacious awareness.

Again and again, we come back to one insight:Our emotional past is not fixed.Each time we remember an experience, the mind updates it. The state of our mind and body in that moment influences how it is stored again.

Meditation helps create the conditions for this shift. A calm and open nervous system changes how old patterns settle in the body. Presence and care make the difference between a memory that stays tight and one that begins to loosen.

In this episode we explore:

* Why trauma exists on a spectrum and why we are more resilient than we often believe

* How emotional memories form and how sensation, context, and meaning become linked

* The science of reconsolidation and why remembering a memory makes it editable

* How meditation supports emotional release and re-patterning

* What happens in the hippocampus and amygdala during emotional release

* Simple practices that help us reset between activities or at the end of a day

* How offering ourselves the same caring presence we offer others can shift deep patterns

A final takeaway:

Reconsolidation shows that nothing in our emotional history is final. Each encounter with the past becomes a chance to update it. When a memory returns in a calmer mind, it settles differently.

Warmly,

Cort + Richie

Podcast Chapter List

00:00 Why memories change every time we recall them

01:21 Opening greetings & Center for Healthy Minds

02:34 Introducing today’s topic: trauma & old baggage

03:00 How neuroscience defines trauma

04:03 Trauma, neuroplasticity, and brain change

05:40 Trauma as a spectrum, not a binary

07:44 Innate resilience and basic goodness

09:11 When difficult experiences become patterns

10:55 PTSD vs. post-traumatic growth

11:52 Personal stories of challenge and insight

12:58 Why some adversity overwhelms us — and some transforms us

13:32 Growth mindset & the belief that change is possible

15:33 Why we get “stuck” with old emotional residue

16:07 Cort’s retreat experience: when old pain resurfaces

17:20 Open awareness and effortless presence

18:00 Memories, emotion, and bodily release

19:08 What’s happening in the brain during emotional release

20:06 Consolidation vs. reconsolidation

22:03 The hippocampus and encoding emotional experience

23:53 Retrieval, reconsolidation, and the chance to reshape memory

25:36 Why memory is always an interpretation

27:08 Re-encoding old memories in a calm body

28:40 How meditation creates a new emotional context

29:38 Care + presence: the healing alchemy

30:52 Can reconsolidation be disrupted entirely?

32:22 What animal research shows about memory deletion

33:00 Emotional memory without emotional charge

34:06 How meditation alters hippocampus–amygdala pathways

36:00 Updating anxiety and old narratives through practice

37:05 Practical tools: daily resets

38:30 Micro-pauses between activities

39:33 Mealtime gratitude as nervous system reset

40:53 Finding small spaces for awareness in busy lives

41:33 Shifting from “doing” to “being”

42:00 Final reflections & gratitude

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 16: Mingyur Rinpoche - Meditation is Easier Than You Think

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Fri, 12 Dec 2025 11:50:00 GMT

Mingyur Rinpoche has spent his life immersed in meditation practice — beginning a three-year retreat at 13, and eventually logging more than 50,000 hours of formal training. He was also a central participant in some of the earliest research Richie conducted on advanced meditators, work that helped open the door to much of the scientific exploration of meditation that followed.

Yet despite this extraordinary background, the way he teaches is remarkably simple and down-to-earth.

In this week’s Dharma Lab conversation, we look at one of the biggest misconceptions people bring to meditation: that it should feel calm or peaceful, and that difficulty means something is going wrong.

Episode Highlights

* Why early meditation often feels harder — and why that’s actually progress

* The monsoon river: a powerful metaphor for understanding the mind

* The “road to Lhasa”: how ups and downs both deepen practice

* What science shows about the first four weeks of meditation

* Why even 4–5 minutes a day meaningfully changes the brain and body

* How to stop fighting distractions and use them as support

* Mingyur Rinpoche’s “anywhere, anytime” approach to awareness

* How difficult emotions become some of the most transformative moments

* A gentler, lighter, more playful way to practice

A conversation filled with warmth

Sitting with Mingyur Rinpoche always leaves us lighter. There is a quality of ease in the way he teaches — a reminder that meditation isn’t about achieving particular states, but about recognizing the awareness that’s present in every one of them.

We’re grateful to share this conversation and hope it offers a moment of spaciousness in your week.

Warmly,

Cort + Richie

REMINDER: Join us for our next Ask Me Anything live with Cort and Richie on Tuesday, December 16 @7pm Eastern Time. Please send us your questions in advance!

Chapter List

00:00 – Learning from difficulty: Why “down moments” matter01:22 – Introducing Mingyur Rinpoche: A lifetime of meditation03:26 – Why Rinpoche inspires Dharma Lab04:15 – Setting intention: A short compassion micro-practice06:42 – “I’m bad at meditating”: The common misconception07:33 – Rinpoche: Meditation is easier than you think08:40 – The myth of “empty mind”09:34 – When practice feels worse before it feels better10:31 – The “waterfall experience” explained11:03 – Scientific data: Why anxiety rises in week one12:03 – How Richie measures this in studies13:00 – Even 4–5 minutes a day changes the brain14:09 – Biological markers & inflammation15:07 – Cort’s early struggles with practice15:31 – The monsoon river metaphor: clarity reveals the mind17:05 – Using everything as support for awareness18:25 – The road to Lhasa: Ups and downs in meditation20:01 – Why down periods help us grow21:20 – Two categories of meditation experience22:25 – How emotional difficulty becomes insight23:59 – Awareness shifts, not experience24:58 – States vs. traits in meditation26:03 – How awareness becomes more spontaneous over time26:18 – Practical tips for everyday practice27:06 – Rinpoche: How we learn from obstacles28:08 – Connecting with the “background of mind”29:10 – Richie: Bringing compassion into busy daily life30:59 – Cort: Using transitions as practice cues33:02 – Anytime, anywhere meditation34:23 – Final thoughts from Rinpoche34:44 – Closing gratitude

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 15: The False Promise of Desire - Our Addiction to a More Ideal Future

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Tue, 02 Dec 2025 12:01:00 GMT

We spend so much of life chasing the next moment… and missing the one we’re in.

This week on Dharma Lab, we dig into the neuroscience of wanting vs. liking, explore how to shift from chasing the next thing to savoring what’s here, and discuss how awe can show up in the smallest, most ordinary moments.

Episode Highlights:

A big part of the conversation centers on two quiet assumptions that shape so much of how we live.

The first is the belief that chasing what we want will finally make us happy—that fulfilling our cravings will give us the contentment we’re seeking. But both research and experience show something different: craving mostly fuels more craving, not more enjoyment.

The second is a more subtle fear—that if we stop chasing, we’ll miss out on something essential. We worry we’ll lose momentum, fall behind, or miss our chance at a better, safer, more successful future. That fear keeps us leaning toward the next moment instead of inhabiting the one we’re actually in.

From there, we explore what does work: orienting toward liking, savoring, and appreciation. And we talk about how awe doesn’t require redwoods or mountaintops—it’s available in the smallest, most ordinary moments when we shift our attention. A slow email sync on a plane becomes a moment of wonder. Leaves on the ground become a doorway to gratitude. Even difficult interactions reveal something unexpectedly human when viewed with fresh eyes.

We’d love to hear from you. What’s one small moment of everyday awe you noticed recently—something ordinary that felt extraordinary when you paid attention? Share your reflections in the comments.

Warmly,

Cort + Richie

Recent Posts:

From the Archives:

Podcast Chapter List

00:00 – Intro and The Addiction to the FutureWhy we chase the next moment and miss the one we’re in.

00:42 – Wanting vs. LikingA coffee moment sparks a discussion on craving, satisfaction, and the brain.

03:24 – The Neuroscience of RewardHow wanting and liking diverge—and why more craving often means less joy.

05:54 – Craving, Dissatisfaction, and the Buddhist LensTeachings on why craving leads away from happiness, not toward it.

10:11 – Living for the Next VacationHow expectations shape dissatisfaction and reset our baseline.

11:28 – Savoring What’s HereOrienting the mind toward what nourishes us in the present moment.

12:48 – Awe in Everyday LifeHow awe isn’t limited to nature—it’s available in ordinary moments.

13:56 – Awe on an AirplaneA slow Wi-Fi connection turns into a moment of wonder.

16:08 – The Dalai Lama’s “Happiest Moment”A story about presence, abundance, and contentment.

17:21 – When Slowing Down Feels RiskyExploring the instinctive fear that if we stop chasing, we’ll miss out or lose what we need.

18:35 – Introducing These Skills EarlyWhy learning to savor early in life can reshape development.

19:02 – Daily Rituals of AppreciationRichie shares the practices that ground his sense of abundance.

21:00 – Finding Wholesomeness in DifficultyHow perspective can shift even in moments of stress or conflict.

22:14 – Expressing Appreciation Out LoudA simple practice that spreads connection and belonging.

23:29 – Flourishing Is ContagiousHow small acts of appreciation ripple outward.

23:40 – Closing ReflectionsSavoring, contentment, and breaking the cycle of craving.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 14: The Neuroscience of Service

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 25 Nov 2025 12:01:00 GMT

In this week’s Dharma Lab conversation, we’ll dive into the science and contemplative wisdom behind generosity, purpose, and everyday altruism.

How Serving Others Nourishes Us

There are moments in life that quietly change everything. For both of us, one of those moments was realizing that meditation was never just about us.

At first, practice was personal, a way to calm the mind, relieve stress, and find clarity. But over time, something shifted. We began to see practice less as self-improvement and more as a path of service, a way of showing up for others, not only ourselves.

As it turns out, both ancient contemplative traditions and modern science point toward the same insight: service does not just help the world, it nourishes us too.

The more we orient our lives toward helping others, the more energizing, meaningful, and joyful our own lives become.

What the Research Shows

There is now a rich scientific literature on volunteering and altruism. One influential series of studies from Johns Hopkins followed older adults in Baltimore who volunteered in local public schools. They helped children read, served lunch, and supervised the playground. They climbed stairs in buildings with no elevators. What began as a community program became a scientific window into the effects of service.

After months of volunteering, participants showed improvements in cognitive functions that usually decline with age. Brain scans revealed positive changes in the prefrontal cortex, the brain’s executive network responsible for planning, focus, and emotional regulation.

Other research on purpose shows similar patterns. People with a strong sense of purpose tend to report greater well-being and live longer. Purpose may be one of the most well-established predictors of longevity we have.

Why Helping Others Feels Good

From a neuroscience perspective, generosity and compassion activate the brain’s reward circuitry. When people behave generously in laboratory studies, the neural reward network lights up more strongly than when they receive something for themselves.

This matches our own lived experience. When we help someone, whether through mentoring, supporting a friend, or recording this podcast, it feels deeply energizing. At the end of the day, we often feel more alive rather than depleted.

It challenges the common assumption that happiness comes from getting more for ourselves. The evidence suggests something different: when we turn toward the well-being of others, happiness tends to arise naturally.

The Inner Practice of Service

In the contemplative traditions, this motivation is called bodhicitta, the heart of awakening. It begins with intention rather than action. Even a brief pause to remember our motivation can change the emotional tone of an entire day.

You can practice it in a few seconds with a simple thought:

“May this be of benefit to others.”

This inner shift recruits networks related to focus and intentionality while activating reward circuits that leave us feeling open and uplifted.

We both use this practice constantly:

* Before recording.

* Before meditation.

* Before meetings.

* Even before exercise.

A short moment of remembering can reshape the entire experience.

Service as an Everyday Practice

We often think service requires ideal conditions, free time, or a perfectly designed opportunity. But the science and the contemplative traditions both show that service can happen in ordinary life.

You can bring this mindset into washing dishes, walking through an airport, or talking to a child. It is the orientation of the mind that matters more than the setting.

Research shows that when people reflect regularly on altruistic intentions, they are more likely to offer spontaneous acts of kindness in daily situations, such as giving up a seat to someone who needs it.

A Shift the World Needs

We’re all carrying a lot these days, and it’s easy to pull inward. But when we turn even slightly toward someone else’s wellbeing, something softens and the day feels a little lighter.

Service doesn’t have to be dramatic. Most of the time it’s a small gesture, a quiet intention, or a moment of paying attention. Yet these moments accumulate. They change how we move through the world and how we feel inside.

We would love to hear from you.What’s one small act of service or generosity that shaped your life this year?

With gratitude,

Cort & Richie

Podcast Chapter List:

00:00 – Why Generosity Activates the Reward Network

00:48 – Cort Shares Two Turning Points in His Practice

02:31 – Realizing Meditation Is About Serving Others

03:59 – Richie on the Dalai Lama and the Shift Toward Service

05:37 – Ego, Career, and the Gradual Move to Altruism

07:06 – How Being Helpful Feeds Our Sense of Meaning

09:14 – The Buddhist View: Self-Focus vs. Service

10:04 – What Volunteering Research Shows About Well-Being

11:12 – Purpose, Aging, and Longevity

12:44 – The Baltimore “Experience Corps” Study

14:15 – Unexpected Benefits: Purpose, Movement, Structure

15:19 – Changes in Cognition and the Brain (Executive Network)

17:07 – Why These Findings Matter

17:38 – The Buddhist Perspective: Motivation Comes First

18:52 – Micro-Practices: Bringing Altruism Into Daily Life

20:07 – Bodhicitta: Vast Aspiration + Practical Action

22:02 – Why This Inner Shift Feels So Nourishing

24:36 – Does Altruism Activate the Reward Network?

25:57 – Generosity vs. Personal Gain: What the Brain Shows

27:17 – Cort’s Personal Aspiration Practice

29:47 – How Altruistic Mindsets Change Your Day

30:53 – Richie’s Morning Calendar Practice

31:24 – “Contemplative Aerobics”: Service While Exercising

33:03 – How Altruistic Mindsets Change Social Behavior

34:13 – The Science of Small Everyday Acts of Service

35:05 – Volunteering as a State of Mind, Not Just an Activity

35:50 – Final Reflections: A Shift in View That Changes Everything

36:31 – Why the World Needs More Altruism Right No

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep. 13: The Neuroscience of Being - Turning Anxiety into Insight

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Tue, 18 Nov 2025 12:14:48 GMT

What does it mean to simply be?

In this episode of Dharma Lab, we explore the neuroscience and contemplative practice of being — that effortless, natural presence that can transform anxiety into insight and turn ordinary moments into gateways of creativity.

Fresh from Richie’s trip to India and a meeting with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, we sit down for a free-flowing, unrehearsed conversation that bridges ancient meditation wisdom and cutting-edge brain science. Together, we explore:

* The difference between doing and being — and why it’s not either/or

* How effortlessness, presence, and naturalness create inner freedom

* What happens in the brain when the prefrontal cortex “goes offline”

* Why even short daily meditations can change brain structure

* How releasing control and predictive loops unlocks creativity

* Practical ways to drop into being throughout your day

Discussion Highlights

The continuum of being and doing:Being and doing aren’t opposites. We move along a spectrum — moments of effort give way to moments of openness. Meditation helps us recognize and expand those natural gaps.

Effortlessness and the brain:When the mind lets go of control, the prefrontal cortex — the “executive” part of the brain — briefly goes offline. Advanced meditators show this pattern: they shift attention effortlessly, without strain or mental effort.

Creativity through presence:True creativity arises not from trying harder, but from relaxing the constraints of thought. As Richie notes, “When we stop directing our thoughts, the mind becomes more flexible — and novel insights can emerge.”

The modern predicament of too much information:We look at how our minds are flooded with information from the moment we wake up. Just as too much food overwhelms the body, too much information overwhelms the mind. True rest requires more than physical stillness. It asks for mental space, time without constant input from phones, news, or endless tasks. Finding that space to simply be gives our minds room to digest and renew.

Three Ingredients of Being: Effortlessness, Presence, and Naturalness

* Effortlessness: releasing mental control so the mind can rest naturally.

* Presence: staying aware without suppressing thoughts.

* Naturalness: allowing experience to unfold without interference.

When these come together, they create the conditions for insight, creativity, and emotional healing.

New research on structural brain changes from meditation:Even a few minutes of daily meditation can change the brain. Richie shares unpublished findings showing increased structural connectivity — literally new wiring — after just one month of brief practice.

Practical wisdom:We share ways to weave being into everyday life: in the gaps between meetings, while waiting in line, or simply resting for a few seconds with eyes open.What we call micro-doses of being: simple, effortless pauses that reconnect us to awareness.

We’d love to hear from you:

* When do you find yourself shifting from doing to being?

* How can you create small pauses in your day to let the mind rest?

* What do you notice when you stop trying to manage your experience and simply let awareness be as it is?

Share your reflections in the comments.

Warmly,

Cort & Richie

Chapter List:

00:00 – Opening reflections: The art of effortless presence01:01 – Richie returns from India & meeting His Holiness the Dalai Lama01:50 – Introducing “the neuroscience of being”03:25 – What happens in the brain when we shift from doing to being?04:00 – Being vs. doing: a continuum, not opposites05:30 – Creativity and releasing mental constraints08:00 – Physical stillness vs. mental stillness10:00 – The modern predicament: information overload13:00 – The “information diet” and its effects on the mind14:10 – Three ingredients of being: effortlessness, presence, and naturalness15:20 – Effortlessness: letting go of control16:10 – What happens when the prefrontal cortex goes offline17:05 – Meditation expertise and the U-shaped curve20:00 – Novices, intermediates, and Olympians of meditation22:00 – Effortless attention and stable awareness23:20 – Training the quality of effortlessness24:50 – Presence: awareness without distraction26:00 – Thoughts are allowed – not suppressed27:00 – Creativity and novelty emerging from open awareness29:00 – The candle flame of insight metaphor30:00 – Brain network connectivity and meditation research33:00 – New Healthy Minds data: structural brain changes in one month35:00 – “It’s easier than you think” – why short practice still matters36:20 – The third element: naturalness or non-fabrication38:00 – Healing through allowing and non-interference39:00 – The brain as a prediction machine41:00 – Breaking predictive loops & spontaneous flexibility43:00 – Why research on “being” is still new43:20 – Practical ways to integrate being into daily life44:00 – Cort’s unplugging rituals and micro-pauses45:00 – Richie’s interstitial moments of awareness46:00 – The self-illuminating mind47:00 – The “bardo” or gap between activities49:00 – Don’t fill the gaps – the practice of pausing49:30 – Micro-doses of being throughout your day49:50 – Closing reflections and gratitude

Ref notes: Explore the Healthy Minds program

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Recording of AMA#3 with Dr. Richie Davidson & Dr. Cortland Dahl

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Thu, 13 Nov 2025 12:03:39 GMT

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.dharmalab.co

Thank you to those who tuned into our 3rd live video with Dr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl! Join us for our next live AMA on Tuesday, Dec 16 at 7pm ET / 6pm CT.

Chapter List for AMA #3:

00:00 – Opening PracticeGuided intention-setting and brief meditation to begin the AMA.

05:00 – Can Meditation Slow Brain Aging?Exploring research on meditation and brain aging, including Mingyur R…

DL Ep.12: Dosage of Meditation

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Wed, 05 Nov 2025 12:00:00 GMT

Episode Highlights:

1. Small doses make a difference. Even a few mindful minutes a day can reshape the brain. Recent MRI research shows that short, consistent practice can lead to measurable structural changes in the brain in just four weeks.

2. Consistency matters more than duration. Across studies from 2003 to today, longer sessions didn’t necessarily lead to better outcomes. What really counts is showing up — the rhythm of practice, not the clock.

3. “Short times, many times.” Ancient manuals never mention minutes or hours. They emphasize moments of awareness scattered through daily life: a breath before speaking, a feeling of compassion, a few conscious steps.

4. End on a good note. Don’t push through fatigue. When your practice feels alive or clear, stop there. Ending while it feels good builds a natural desire to return.

5. Begin and end with aspiration. A simple intention — “May this be of benefit to others” — frames the mind in a positive way. Ending with that same wish creates a lasting imprint, consistent with psychologist Daniel Kahneman’s “peak-end rule.”

6. Friendship over force. Meditation isn’t about grinding it out. As Richie puts it, “Make friends with your mind. Don’t treat it as something to struggle against.”

7. The most important practice is the one you’ll actually do. It doesn’t require perfect silence or long retreats — just the willingness to pause and come home to awareness, again and again.

We’d love to hear from you:How much meditation feels “enough” for you?What helps you stay consistent, and what does friendship with your own mind look like in daily life?

Share your reflections in the comments.

Warmly,

Cort & Richie

Chapter List:

0:00 – Intro: What is the “dosage” of meditation?1:00 – The myth of ideal conditions for practice3:00 – Richie on early research: the 2003 immune system study6:00 – What the science shows about minutes vs. outcomes9:00 – App-based meditation and real-world data11:00 – Does practicing longer make a difference? Not necessarily13:00 – “Momentary assessments” — why timing of measurement matters14:00 – New research: brain changes after short daily practice16:00 – How meditation reshapes the prefrontal cortex and default mode network19:00 – Classical wisdom: no mention of minutes, only “short times, many times”21:00 – The importance of ending on a good note23:00 – Making friends with your mind instead of forcing it25:00 – Beginning and ending with aspiration28:00 – Danny Kahneman’s peak-end rule and meditation30:00 – Why intention and inspiration matter more than duration32:00 – Richie on how his personal practice evolved35:00 – Meditation in everyday life — airports, flights, and love meditations36:30 – What really matters: motivation, kindness, and consistency37:30 – Closing reflections and takeaways

Reference notes:

* Explore the Healthy Minds Program app referenced in the discussion

Recent Posts:

In case you missed it, check out recent posts on the topic of Meditation Dosage and use of Meditation Apps here:

From the Archives:

Do you have topics you would like to see in future posts, suggestions for features, or areas of improvement? We would love to hear from you HERE!

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DL Ep.11: Meditation Apps - The Impacts on Brain Health to Gut Health

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Fri, 31 Oct 2025 11:00:00 GMT

In this episode of Dharma Lab, we sit down with our friend and colleague Dr. Simon Goldberg, one of the world’s leading researchers on meditation apps. Together, we explore what the data really say about digital practice — what’s working, what’s not, and how even a few minutes a day can reduce stress and support wellbeing. It’s a conversation about technology, habits, and the ways meditation is quietly transforming our minds and bodies — changes that science can measure only in part, but that reach far beyond the lab.

Highlights from the Episode

* From the Himalayas to the App Store — A historical reflection on how meditation once required crossing mountains to find a teacher, and how that same wisdom is now available instantly on our phones.

* The Science of Small Practice — Dr. Simon Goldberg shares data showing that even five minutes of daily meditation can meaningfully reduce stress, ease anxiety, and support emotional balance.

* Measurable Shifts in the Body — New research reveals tangible biological changes from short, consistent practice — including lower inflammation markers and shifts in gut health and emotional language.

* Beyond the Lab — Richie Davidson discusses the limits of current research, noting that while short-term studies capture early benefits, the deepest changes from contemplative practice may unfold years later — far beyond the reach of most scientific follow-ups.

In case you missed it, check out a written contextual summary of this podcast here:

Podcast Chapter List

00:00 – Intro

02:00 – Welcome & introduction to Dr. Simon Goldberg

03:00 – From Himalayan pilgrimages to instant apps

05:00 – Simon on learning to meditate alone & the promise of digital tools

06:00 – Richie on technology democratizing Dharma

09:00 – Cort on self-taught practice before apps and books as teachers

10:00 – Do meditation apps actually work? The research overview

11:00 – What the data say about mental health benefits

12:00 – Comparing apps to in-person training and effect sizes

16:00 – The real-world time course of practice change

18:00 – How long do studies actually run? Follow-ups and limits

19:00 – What common measures miss about deep transformation

21:00 – “Ten percent happier”? Translating effect sizes to real life

22:00 – Individual differences and why ruminators benefit most

24:00 – The BeWell study design and Healthy Minds app trial

26:00 – Meditation vs education-only conditions and key findings

28:00 – Biological markers: inflammation and gut microbiome (gut health) changes

31:00 – Language shifts and reduced self-focus

32:00 – Retention and long-term benefits after practice ends

34:00 – Delayed effects and long horizons of mind-training

36:00 – Engagement challenges and the “hockey-stick” drop-off

40:00 – Habit formation, commitment, and why apps fade

41:00 – Behavioral economics and remembering practice under stress

42:00 – The non-linear path of real change

43:00 – The future of digital well-being: AI & personalization

44:00 – Integrating practice into daily life through technology

45:00 – Just-in-time interventions and real-time support

47:00 – From “Anytime Anywhere” to “Every time Everywhere” practice

49:00 – Closing reflections on the promise of Digital Dharma

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

AMA Recording #1: Guided Practices & Q&A

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:03:24 GMT

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.dharmalab.co

We’re so grateful to everyone who joined us for our very first Dharma Lab AMA with Dr. Cortland Dahl and Dr. Richard Davidson in early September. You’ll find in the recording two guided practices (one each from Cort & Richie), as well as the full recording of Q&A.

Below you’ll find a summary of the conversation, written up in a Q&A format so it’s easy to follow. It’s not a perfect or complete transcript, so please forgive any typos and brevity, but we wanted to capture the spirit of the dialogue and share the key insights with all of you for those who prefer to read rather than watch the episode.

Podcast Chapter List

0:00 - Intro

3:12 - Opening Guided Practice by Cort to set intention for the session

8:28 - Questions & Answers with participants. Question 1: where do you draw the line between mental health and social health? Is it where your epigenome is modified by social interactions, no matter how you perceive them? Or is it where your perception is modified, no matter what state your epigenome is in?

16:03 - Question 2: Cort, how did you go from a socially anxious teenager to an executive director and overall friendly happy being?

21:44 - Question 3: When practicing analytical meditation—examining a difficult situation through words, sensations, emotions, images, and beliefs—do physical sensations and images enhance the process? And if someone can’t access those, is it related to trauma, like PTSD?

37: 39 - Question 4: Judd Brewer talks about the trigger–behavior–reward cycle. How do we interrupt undesired behaviors?

42:31 - Question 5: Please say more about holding and being with the first arrow from Buddhist psychology, particularly for worry or concern about the health of a loved one and not shooting that second arrow yourself.

50:03 - Question 6: Why do retreats often show stronger measurable effects than the same number of hours practiced as short daily sessions? Could sleep or changes in everyday habits explain that difference?

56:26 - Closing Practice with Richie

Transcript Q&A Summary

Q1: Dear Richie, where do you draw the line between mental health and social health? Is it where your epigenome is modified by social interactions, no matter how you perceive them? Or is it where your perception is modified, no matter what state your epigenome is in? Since the epigenome can be modified by food, drugs, social interactions, and spiritual experiences, is social health determined by social relationships?

A (Richard Davidson):This is a wonderful and complex question. It’s so rich that I plan to write a Dharma Lab essay about it. But briefly:

* The epigenome refers to parts of the genome that can be modified by environmental or internal factors. These modifications affect whether a gene actually produces its protein.

* For example, in animal studies, researchers have bred strains of rats to be highly anxious or very relaxed. But if an “anxious” rat pup is raised by a nurturing mother (one who does a lot of licking and grooming), its gene expression changes. Despite genetic predisposition, that nurturing care alters its brain chemistry and activation, and the rat becomes less anxious.

* This shows that the old split between “nature vs. nurture” is outdated. Social interactions—how we are cared for—literally modify biology.

So mental health and social health are deeply interwoven; the line between them is blurred.

Q2: Cortland, you’ve mentioned before that you struggled with anxiety when you were young. How did you get from being that socially anxious young man to leading an international nonprofit and becoming the friendly, grounded person you are today?

DL Ep. 10: Loneliness as Deadly as Smoking 15 Cigarettes a Day

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Thu, 16 Oct 2025 19:24:33 GMT

In this episode of Dharma Lab, Richie Davidson and Cortland Dahl dive into one of the most startling findings in modern science: that loneliness and social disconnection can be as harmful to our health as smoking fifteen cigarettes a day.

They explore what makes loneliness so toxic—not just for our mental well-being, but for our physical health—and how ancient contemplative wisdom and modern neuroscience converge on the same insight: connection is medicine.

From the biology of stress and resilience to simple daily practices that nurture kindness and belonging, this conversation reveals how small shifts in awareness can rewire the brain for connection—and why doing so may be one of the most important things we can do for ourselves and our world. Podcast chapter list below.

In case you missed it, check out a written contextual summary of this podcast here:

Podcast Chapter List

0:00 – Intro: Why loneliness matters more than we realize1:20 – How common is loneliness today?3:00 – The Surgeon General’s warning on social disconnection5:15 – Mind–body divide: why medicine overlooks relationships7:30 – The 2015 meta-analysis: where the “15 cigarettes a day” claim comes from10:35 – Loneliness vs. obesity and other health risks12:10 – How loneliness gets “under the skin”: stress, resilience, and recovery14:15 – Can we actually train connection?16:20 – Kindness and compassion as skills18:30 – How ancient contemplative practices expand our circle of care20:45 – What happens in the brain after just two weeks of practice22:40 – Everyday connection moments: examples from daily life26:20 – Practicing connection in ordinary settings (like airports!)28:50 – The perception of loneliness vs. actual isolation30:30 – Science on subjective vs. objective measures of connection32:40 – Why social connection is a public health imperative34:15 – Final reflections: small practices, big impact

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.9: Overthinking and Rumination (Part 2)

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Fri, 03 Oct 2025 01:45:00 GMT

In this Dharma Lab episode, we pick up where we left off—moving from why our minds get so restless to what we can actually do about it, exploring three strategies from Buddhist psychology for working skillfully with overthinking: Remove, Transform, and Transcend.

See chapter list below.

In case you missed it, check out a written contextual summary of this podcast here:

Podcast Chapter List

0:00 - Intro2:30 - Cort & Richie share personal experiences with rumination8:41 - Overview of the three Buddhist psychology strategies9:50 - Remove: Notice triggers & redirect attention20:52 - Transform: Observe thoughts as just thoughts—this loosens their grip and can turn them into sources of insight or compassion31:16 - Transcend: Learn to see the vast field of awareness within which thoughts arise and dissolve40:08 - Closing reflections: flourishing is infectious

If you’d like to begin with Overthinking and Rumination (Part 1), you can find it here:

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.8: Overthinking and Rumination (Part 1)

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Fri, 26 Sep 2025 11:00:00 GMT

In this week’s podcast, Cort and Richie explore why the mind so often gets stuck in rumination, how our evolutionary wiring and contrast-detecting brains fuel it, and what contemplative practices can do to shift us from anxious loops into clarity and balance.

Reminder: our second AMA (ask me anything with Cort + Richie) is on Tuesday, September 30th at 8pm ET. Please send your question in advance!

See chapter list below.

In case you missed it, check out a written contextual summary of this podcast here:

Podcast Chapter List

0:00:00 - Intro

3:43:00 - What is Rumination, and what advantages does it provide?

8:12:00 - Why do we so often focus on the negative when we ruminate?

14:48:00 - The evolutionary threat response, and how meditation helps you see it more clearly

18:00:00 - The toxicity of chronic stress

22:02:00 - Another benefit to mental time travel: the ability to develop a sense of purpose

24:00:00 - Regaining agency over our minds, and not classifying aspects as “good” or “bad”

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.7: The Science of Micro Practices

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:00:00 GMT

One of the questions we hear most often is: how much practice do I really need to do? Do the benefits of meditation only come after logging hours on the cushion?

The science—and lived experience—tell a different story. In fact, in the very first randomized controlled trial of Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) back in 2003, researchers expected that more minutes of daily meditation would predict bigger changes in well-being. But the data showed something surprising: there was no relationship between the number of minutes people practiced and the outcomes they experienced. Even those who admitted to doing almost no formal meditation outside of class showed the same improvements in anxiety, depression, and immune function as those who put in the most time.

So what’s going on here? One clue lies in micro-practices—short, repeated moments of awareness that weave into everyday life. A grandmother in one of our programs once shared that she had never managed to sit formally for practice, but one morning she found herself pausing instead of snapping at her granddaughter. She simply listened to the sound of her granddaughter’s voice, noticed her own irritation, and let it go. That tiny shift changed the whole morning.

This is the heart of what we call short times, many times. These glimpses don’t require carving out special hours—they can happen while you’re washing dishes, waiting in line, or walking the dog. And they matter. Neuroscience shows that even these brief flashes can reshape brain connectivity, loosening the grip of reactivity and strengthening resilience.

Another piece of the practice is learning to adjust the aperture of awareness. Sometimes we need a narrow, focused beam of attention—staying locked in on a task. Other times, life calls for a panoramic awareness—taking in a room, a conversation, or simply the whole moment. Athletes like Wayne Gretzky describe this wide-field awareness as a kind of superpower. We can train the same flexibility in daily life: knowing when to zoom in, when to zoom out, and when to soften altogether.

The takeaway is simple: seconds matter. Micro-practices, repeated many times a day, build the skill of shifting awareness. And over time, those little moments add up to real transformation.

We’d love to hear how you’re experimenting with this in your own life. Where do you find your micro-practices—at work, with family, in the midst of stress? Share your reflections with us—we’ll be continuing this conversation together.

Podcast chapter list below.

In case you missed it, check out this week’s Micro Practice: 60-Second Weather Check:

Podcast Chapter List

0:00 - Intro – "How much do I need to practice?"

2:23 - Early studies on MBSR: No correlation between practice time and results

4:49 - Shift in perspective – healthcare worker’s story with noisy grandchildren

8:17 - How the brain reacts to short micro-practices

12:52 - Adjusting the "aperture of awareness" – when to dial out or in

17:18 - Short moments, many times

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.6: The Science of Uncertainty

Dharma Lab, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Thu, 11 Sep 2025 17:50:20 GMT

In this week’s podcast, Cort and Richie discuss how fear shrinks our perception, but harnessing awareness widens the lens again. See chapter list below.

In case you missed it, check out a written contextual summary of this podcast here:

Podcast Chapter List

0:00:00 - Intro

2:28:00 - How the brain reacts to uncertainty

7:33:00 - Amygdala activation: narrowing perception to potential threats

8:54:00 - Physical responses to fear and the spiral of anxiety

12:41:00 - Evolutionary origins: the brain as a “change detector”

16:38:00 - Chronic activation: why unresolved threats are unhealthy

17:30:00 - Meditation as mental training for self-awareness

21:40:00 - Lab studies: unknown fears trigger stronger reactions

27:06:00 - When the future is unpredictable: what can we do?

29:01:00 - The elixir of awareness

40:13:00 - Cort and Richie discuss coping with uncertainty

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This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.5: Meditation Is Not What You Think

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Thu, 04 Sep 2025 19:00:00 GMT

Richie and Cort discuss how small shifts in perspective lead to lasting changes in the brain and experience

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DL Ep.4: The Science of Discomfort

Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl, and Dr. Richie Davidson — Thu, 28 Aug 2025 18:00:00 GMT

Notes from Dharma Lab

* Please see written primer below on The Science of Discomfort (released Tuesday 8/26)

Ep.4 Chapter List:

0:00 Stories of Discomfort: MRI & Dentist

5:24 The Science of Pain & The Two Arrows

8:23 The Suffering Equation: Pain x Resistance

10:05 Your Brain on Pain: Shifting Resistance

12:59 How Meditation Changes Pain & Distress

14:35 Can Beginners Really Change Their Experience?

18:52 Discomfort as a Mindfulness Hack

20:24 Meditation as Mental Hygiene

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This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.3: Beyond Burnout - Research Discussion

Dharma Lab and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Wed, 20 Aug 2025 16:29:44 GMT

Dear Dharma Lab readers,

Join Richie and Cort in Dharma Lab Episode 3 in a wide ranging research discussion on the findings from the JAMA article announced earlier this week on Burnout. Joining us are friends of the pod Daniela Labra and Leandro Chernicoff.

Full Discussion Below:

Chapters:

0:00:00 – Intro and overview of the study in Mexico: Digital Well-Being Training With Health Care Professionals3:46:00 – Richie gives an overview of the burnout crisis and the neuroscience behind burnout11:15:00 – Real world stories of burnout encountered during this study in Mexico16:24:00 – Discussing details of the study, and why this work was taken on24:13:00 – What specific skills were learned by participants, and reflections by the panelists about how to put these skills to use43:14:00 – Are different skills necessary, or are some more important than others?45:22:00 – The impact of the study, summary findings, and data

Contextual Piece Here (released yesterday):

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This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe

DL Ep.2: Your Brain on AI

Dr. Cortland Dahl, Dr. Richie Davidson, and Dharma Lab — Wed, 13 Aug 2025 15:48:51 GMT

Listen on Episode #2 on Youtube, Spotify, Apple:

YoutubeSpotifyApple Podcasts

Episode 2 Chapter List:

0:00 Intro

0:32 Episode Overview by Cort

2:35 “This is Your Brain on AI” — and How the Media Spins the Negative

4:07 Historical Precedent: Handwriting vs. Typing

5:44 MIT Study: How Large Language Models Impact the Brain

15:06 Will Certain Skills Become Obsolete with AI?

17:38 The Role of Intention and Full Awareness

21:24 Unintended Consequences — Lessons from Buddhist Monks on Memory and Focus

24:04 Using AI to Prompt Reflection for Better Thinking

31:56 Final Thoughts: Stay in the Driver’s Seat with AI

See our written context setting post here for reference to the Podcast Episode 2:

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DL Ep.1: The Most Important Thing

Dharma Lab and Dr. Cortland Dahl — Sat, 02 Aug 2025 21:19:14 GMT

Richie and Cort discuss The Most Important Thing in Episode #1 of Dharma Lab.

02:22 – "My religion is Kindness"

05:25 – Kindness is the most important thing — apply a "kindness acid test" to all you do

08:08 – How kindness and compassion have (or haven’t) been studied in neuroscience

12:44 – Defining "kindness" and "compassion" in scientific and Buddhist terms

18:55 – Changing your focus from empathy to compassion can reduce burnout

26:49 – Empathy vs. compassion: toddler study example

29:10 – Question for Cort: Is empathy a prerequisite for compassion?

32:23 – Question for Richie: Are kindness and compassion innate or developed?

36:30 – Using kindness as an antidote to anxiety or anger

41:36 – Kindness and compassion as a skill

44:30 – New data: Healthy Minds kindness trainings improve teacher outcomes

49:30 – Perspective shift: consider how your actions benefit others

56:13 – Switching from a “needs” to a “service” mindset

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dharmalab.co/subscribe