We also discuss Pan by Michael Clune, Milkman by Anna Burns, Paul Theroux, VS Naipaul, the rise and fall of wokism in lit, Long Island, New Hampshire, that amazing Guardian Best Books List, hot bowls of culture, the libs, the leftists, the rightists, Vance v. Rubio, jasmine, Michael Derick Hudson and Best American Poetry, dirty creeks, artificial intelligence (AI), Salinger, who we really are, world travel, Asia, Trinidad, parenting, Ocean Vuong, how to save the children, the meaning behind names, publishing, literature, books and having the courage to say the thing.