Owen and Brad talk about why the legal profession is failing younger lawyers, what happens when the promise of the gold watch no longer fills the cup, and why so many attorneys find themselves running on empty despite doing everything they were told to do. The conversation moves into Brad's growing spiritual practice, the fear of stepping into the unknown without a clear destination, and what it looks like to just stop chasing more. Recorded in August, released fashionably late.

We talked about grief, but also about mortality and meaning and why our culture is so fucking terrible at dealing with death. Amy's been wrestling with the big questions lately—what happens when we die, how to build a coherent worldview without traditional religion, why some people treat relationships like transactions.

She's also gotten really good at telling people no. There's a story in here about someone who kept pestering her for career advice while she was dealing with Roy's death, and her response is pretty much perfect.

_________

Amy Volas is the founder of Avenue Talent Partners and one of the most authentic voices on LinkedIn about leadership, relationships, and what it means to show up as a whole human in professional spaces. She's currently finishing her first book and believes in calling people on their bullshit—not to be mean, but to hold them to the standards they set for themselves.

Connect with Amy: LinkedIn Profile

Learn more: Avenue Talent Partners

Topics discussed:

The realization that intensity might be a feature, not a bug

Why both hosts stopped identifying closely with being attorneys

The Chinese literati and the lost art of being multiple things

Pat's decision to stop practicing law and embrace uncertainty

The coloring book approach to life and work

How Kid Cudi's "Pursuit of Happiness" captures a moment of transition

The spiritual nature of legal practice and dealing with various forms of "death"

Why most legal work is just "Control A, Control C, Control V"

The crumble cookie-ification of professional services

How AI will reshape the legal profession

The importance of human connection in an increasingly digital world

The challenge of proving you're "real" in an age of deep fakes

Guest info: Pat Patino can be found on LinkedIn and at newfangled.legal. Check out his podcast "The Newfangled Lawyer" on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Anastasia Boyko is a rare true changemaker and she was gracious enough to take a beat and talk with us about a whole bevy of topics from her unique vantage. Anastasia was born in Soviet Ukraine, made her way to Utah with her mother before the wall fell, worked her way to Yale Law and Manhattan Biglaw, into the world of legal tech, back to Yale to create an innovative leadership program, before moving to home/not-home Utah to find some new trouble to cause.

She's even more interesting than that recitation of things suggests.

You can find Anastasia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anastasiaboyko/

No more need be said. Enjoy.

Find Tony on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tony-albrecht/

Visit CONTENDER: https://contenderllc.com/

You can find Robb here:

1. LinkedIn


2. GrowthHabit


3. Die Before They Do

Check out Chris at all of these places:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/c-s-sellers/

https://www.cssellers.com

You can find Murray here:

https://www.murraygottheil.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/murray-gottheil-58787b1/

Kyle and his wife, Lily Schurra, are amazing people and instant friends...even though I've spoken with them a sum total of three times. They own an amazing legal tech consultancy, which you can and should check out at: https://www.lolilegal.com/

In this episode of Sonder Union, Toni Serofin joins us to talk about books, music, and art. It was a thoroughly enjoyable conversation with an absolutely fascinating woman.

You can find Toni on Linked in here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toniserofin/

And at her website: https://sanserofin.com/

You can find Graeme on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnstongraeme/

And you should check out what he's up to at https://www.juralio.com

John is one of the smartest and most humble people I know and he brings that energy in this episode.

You can find him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-glicksman-5991094/

Charley is a law firm business coach and he's damned good at that. I'm not super interested in that, though, for the purposes of Sonder Union. So we talk about his background in acting, the nature of performance, and Pokemon.

You can find Charley on his own podcast, They Don't Teach This in Law School. Check it out, especially if you are an attorney. It's a weekly listen for me.

Also hit up Law Firm Alchemy and sign up for the newsletter at https://www.lawfirmalchemy.com

You can find Charley on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleymann/

Luka Poulton was kind enough to run this experiment with me and we have some answers to that riddle, at least for us. YMMV.

Luka and I had a pretty wide-ranging discussion and I'm pretty confident you'll find something in here to your taste, even if some of this is just old buddies catching up.

You can reach out to Luka on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukapoulton/

All music copyright Owen McGrann

You can find Theodora on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drtheodoraziamou/

If you're interested in helping your customers make better decisions, you might want to visit https://www.enlexis.com

Paul Watkins is a delightful guest: full of expected and unexpected wisdom and a wonderful sense of humor about things. He is able to appreciate Nassim Nicholas Taleb's work and still recognize what a gigantic douche he is.

You can find Paul at https://www.paulwatkins.com.au and on LinkedIn (where he's doing some actually interesting stuff) at https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-watkins-92125499/

Music copyright © Owen McGrann 2023.

If you don't want to hear a story about miscarriage or pregnancy loss, I would skip this one.

It was an absolute blast trading stories with Sarah and I suspect you'll find it pretty interesting too. Sarah has played Aussie Rules Football for Team Canada, worked as a badass lawyer for a large bank, opened her own business, and has made it a mission to speak about ADHD in the professional world.

She's awesome and you can find her on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-ennor/

Music copyright © Owen McGrann 2023.

Lenor was a guest on Episode 3, The Irish Goodbye. She was a tremendous guest, and I was a tremendously shitty host. I kept cutting out during recording, leaving her hanging in the room, and then managed not to record the last 50 minutes of our conversation. She was gracious enough to come back.

You can find Lenor on LinkedIn (and you should: she's one of the very best writers around): https://www.linkedin.com/in/lenormarquissegal/

Episode Ten is something a bit different: there's no guest today, so you're stuck only with your humble host, who shares some reflections on where Sonder Union has been and where it hopes to go in 2024.

Please rate and review! Until next year!

If you are in the northeast of the United States, you need to make your way to New Haven, Connecticut for some great pizza and a visit to Sonal's space that defies simple description, The Table & Gallery.

As always, here are the places you can find Sonal:

https://thetableandgallery.com/

https://www.aweinartfilms.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonalsonal/

Instead, I texted my guest for this episode, one of my oldest and best friends, Rob Lisy. Although the premise of the podcast is to get to know new people, I invited Rob on for a few reasons:

1. I like talking with him and missed him, and it's my podcast.


2. I thought it'd be unfair to spring this on some unsuspecting guest whom I'm speaking to for the first time.


3. The theme is, at heart, part of the drive that caused me to start Sonder Union in the first place: a yearning for connection.

So, you can find Rob at https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-lisy-a4a9008/

All music copyright Owen McGrann 2023.

Keith and his wife, Laura, have an amazing podcast titled "In Residence" and I recommend it very, very highly. If you like our discussion about getting through creative blockages, doing The Thing whether or not you feel ready or comfortable, and developing the practice of shipping the work...just wait until he has somebody really smart to talk with instead of me!

You can find Keith at:

• makecreatebuild.com


• https://www.linkedin.com/in/kinglutherie/


• https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-residence-with-keith-and-laura/id1705655406

And if you'd like to join us at Purple Space, you can find that here: https://www.purple.space

Music copyright © Owen McGrann 2023.

His face tattoos are wild.

You can find him here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hassan-s-ali/

Chris has been on a journey of self-discovery for most of his adult life. And, yes, all of us are on a journey of self-discovery, but Chris has a story you need to hear.

You can find Chris on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathantobin/

Music copyright © Owen McGrann 2023.

I hope you enjoy my discussion with John Lindsey as much as I did. He's one of a kind, a fellow introvert comfortable on stage, a man who knows how to wear a wig.

You can find John here (and only here, as he is otherwise a digital ghost): https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-lindsey-0bb6a3212/

All music copyright © Owen McGrann, 2023.

But the 25 minutes that I do have is pretty great! Lenor is one of my favorite writers on LinkedIn and is so good, she made me break one of my rules for Sonder Union in the third episode: no lawyers as guests.

You can find Lenor here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lenormarquissegal/

You can find me with my head in my hands, frustrated that most of this conversation evaporated into the digital ether.

This episode includes extensive discussion of serious illness, death, and suicide. So, if that's not your thing, you might want to skip this episode.

You can find Louis at https://www.linkedin.com/in/louis-colombo-87a0721a3/

All music copyright © Owen McGrann, 2023.

We are joined in our inaugural episode by Jerry Bui, creator, digital forensics expert, and all-around fascinating dude. You can find him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerrybui/

All music copyright © Owen McGrann, 2023.