Episode Transcript

So I've could you tell me a little bit more about that? The identity issue that would be thinking about recently. What's your take on it?

So in my experience working as a counselor, especially and, you know, even in other areas of my life, I've worked with a lot of individuals from a lot of different backgrounds. So I've worked with individuals from very different places, Africa, Eastern Europe, India Pakistan, Central America, even in Far, East Asia, Vietnam. Cambodia, and some of the things that I'm realizing is in the culture today. It's really important to be aware and acknowledge someone's cultural background and to try to understand where they're coming from their culture and this is a part of their identity. And what I've come to learn, is those pieces of their identity, those pieces of their life, how they've kind of frame themselves and to find themselves,

Are in and of themselves, sort of part of it, and part of their veneer. And some of that goes, very deep Beyond being a veneer. And what I like to see and what I've noticed over time is there is an element of a universal Humanity that start to show up with people. This means that we all sort of end up at the same place in some ways at the core and root of what we are looking at.

My work is about helping people, develop deep connection with themselves with others, may be a higher power.

And also a depth of being so that they fully can Plumb the depths of their core of who they are. So the universal Humanity, ideas it at the core there. I believe that in many ways were contending with similar issues of which culture and gender and race and

Ethnicity religion. All these things play a role that shape and conform it along with our biology.

So what I was discussing recently was, I've had this happen a couple times and it has happened recently with a couple of African-American clients where they are sharing a story about their life. May be from Africa, they may be from the inner city of New York yet. What starts to happen is in this case, both of these men were sharing about there.

Relationships with their fathers.

And the idea here in my work is one of the ways we come at this as we all sort of pick up a script about how we're supposed to live our life and something that I ran into a phrase or an idea. Randall couple years ago at one of my counselors offices. Was when you're writing the story of your life make sure you're the one holding the pen.

Now, that's difficult because, you know, as we're growing up, you know, we are influenced by pretty powerful people. So nonetheless, this situation showed up with these men's fathers and one in particular was attempting to live out a particular way of life in his profession, how we saw himself through what his father wanted for him now. Present seems pretty simplistic.

You know, pretty easy to pick up, make sense, yet it becomes a very deep operative inside of us. That's beyond. Just we get it in our head. It becomes part of our instinctual being or emotional being if it can even tap into our heart. So these things are very wetted us and we have a particular type of loyalty to these scripts and to the people who have sort of expose dust to their way of being and then

Their definition of us. So this man's story became my story to in this way, because I also had a relationship with my father. And he was extremely demanding in a particular way. He wanted me to show up for myself and how I wanted to be make my way into the world for me for him, that I became a doctor. And that exerted, all kinds of other pressures school. And that was a big one.

Getting certain types of crates. So this impacted a lot of part of my story and

Part of trauma, emotional, trauma is being pushed into being something. You aren't.

And most people, I would say doing this work of me have had to fit themselves into a square box and there may be around bag and over time, this can wear someone down and there's a lot of shame that can start showing up because of the fact that they aren't abiding by the family script, or the cultural script.

One thing that seems to me to be and I would love to know from your perspective. This is just an impression or not, but it seems to me that this, this sort of issue that you described especially what in real in relation to Identity. It's very, it's a very recent issue or at least the

The abundance of cases seem to be very recent, is that true? Well, they awareness of it is, definitely now.

Surely become a deluge and it's important. And I don't intend to disparage, it trust me because I don't think the emphasis was placed on this for many years in this way, for sure.

And I think what's been good about this is we are now becoming more open to each other's identities and understanding those identities. The challenge becomes

Holy seeing that as Who We Are.

We are more than an American.

Who's a white male? We have a lot happening or an African American who came from

Nigeria and is now here. So, it is definitely on everyone's radar now, and when that happens, sometimes all of our attention Narrows to that one place,

Is it, is it the case that some identities are being pushed to be set being celebrated more than others? And that could be, could that be a problem as well, when when, you know, some people may be seen their own identity being repressed or being previous for being distracted.

That's a, that's a can of worms, I can only again speak from my own experience.

I would say that yes there are certain you know there are certain ethnicities certain religions certain races that say all these things colors you know by POC would be one transgender be another that are at the Forefront in many ways of a lot of social media, political discussion educated mean all kinds of things.

so,

This happens, you know, it can also happen with the elevation of the needs for women. And as a white male, we have sort of, in some regards, have this Limelight, the center of light in this culture. So to make room for others. It's definitely a challenge and the that's a fine line you have to be nimble about

How we go about celebrating other cultures at inadvertently, the expense of others. Again it's sort of a dynamic that

I've observed rightly or wrongly where we sort of take one part of of the discussion and make it the hole.

And we cast one particular group as one way with particular merits and another group with not any not much Merit, and it's an unbalanced picture.

Do you think there is there is room or the other? Is there room for a reset in terms of the identity conflict is there room for some sort of a maybe not in the macro,

State of things. But you know, at least in the family State, you know, the families are in the small groups. So give me an example of what you're thinking about here. Well, let's say, let's say, well you mentioned you mentioned a few identity groups and and let's say one of those groups has a strong claim that it's being oppressed or attacked by the other group, right? How to how to reach.

A state where everyone can start from zero and is there is that even desirable like this moment where people can just say, hey, you know what, we all made mistakes, some of us made more mistakes than others. But how about we have a like a future where we try not to make any more mistakes? Instead of a of this, which seems to be the case, so many, so many times. Now of constant and

Conflict between identities.

well, I would the way I look at it is

I don't think we ever started zero because we're already bringing our history. That's an impossibility. The question is, how do we

Re-examine that history and take what worked and didn't work. Understand the hurt that has occurred an integrated into a new meaning and a new way of seeing particular

Cultures races, genders and so forth. It's a requiring of its can be a bit of a, it's not an easy task. Because really the goal in the end is is we all would like in some ways I believe is deep connection and that also means that we have to maintain our own separate identity along the number of lines cultural personal race religion. And we also have to coexist

exist as different people. So again, how do we

Create Harmony amongst the groups. I think it's

naive to believe that we can get everything on an equal playing field.

And everything will eventually mirror, some sameness an equality, everything has its own level of equality, and inequality, and some sameness. So, again, it's the personal work, possibly the group work of learning how to accept and welcome your own situation. And where you come from understanding, what has happened to you, as a result of that, part of who you are. They identity part.

and then finding ways to heal and integrate the healing into a new meaning of what who you are as a particular identity, whether your Christian Muslim Jewish,

you know, a particular race. So that you have some modicum of degree of comfort because there's always going to be a tension between groups. And how do we continue to navigate those groups when it spills over? Now you did make a comment that it is equal. It is difficult for four people have been oppressed to if they're not we're not careful my own.

Religious upbringing has had a history of going through very difficult tragic, generational, traumatic things and to be able to work through that enough. So that we don't find ourselves dwelling in a victim place which can happen in the culture. And there are many people that have moved beyond that and their many people have not and sometimes I wander in and maybe one of them exposed to that on.

A whole we're struggling with this issue right now. And the idea of coming back to zero again seems very naive.

What to do then? When one identity part of that identity is the exclusion or the

The or, you know, predict from the attack of the other, how to, how, I mean, you could, we could go extremes. But even if you don't go streams, like, if you get a couple of religion identities, many of them are they just don't talk to each other, right? Like, if you could, you could pick situations here and there where things seems to be seem to be just out of

solution, like there's no possibility for for a future because those identities, they are fundamentally created to exclude the other

I wonder if they really are fundamentally created to exclude the other now that may be part of the human condition to do that, do you think they were there were there were originally good, but at some point they got corrupted, right? No plate. They became closed systems as opposed to open systems. Right? I don't, I mean, I could comment on the macro level here of what's Happening, which is what I feel. Like the question is kind of geared.

Which I totally understand really at this point, all I can only speak to or choose to speak to is the individual.

Who have the micro level, which is a person coming into my office, or I used to do group work, where they were groups of individuals in a particular identity, you know, how to particular Identity or race and then they were in a room with other people of other different races. So white man might work for Nami with men at this point back a couple of years ago, but white men, black men, Christians Muslims, all in the same.

Room. So you're kind of starting to move out of the personal realm, into more of a guru crowd and then you have a culture around that have a societal realm. So what, I guess what I could say when you have people.

Bringing to the table particular, beliefs ideas ideology and then you have mechanisms that sort of bond them or attach them. To particular ways of seeing the world. The work is to help people move through and let go and detach from what it is. That doesn't seem to be helping them if we presume that.

Being more of an open system, yet. Also recognizing that, you know, you are your own person and that there are boundaries involved here. So you're sort of an open system with an element of closeness to it is again balance. So, when you have a dialogue of people in the same room, who can feel safe enough to be open, they can start opening depending on how things are facilitated in the depth of what we're doing. They can start hearing each other.

And then I'm going to go back to what we started with is they end up connecting generally. In my view, is there Universal Humanity that we're all in here is humans and that's there's more to be said about all this and then I want to move from that piece to the individual because that's what I do right now and I would like to do more of it in a larger context but

An individual.

Their content more painting. Yeah, I was going to I was going to ask you because it seems to be like, I don't forget this case of this, this this for I forgot that the name of the of the guy but he was, he was an African American journalist who or, or a, I think it was a journalist, but he got involved with the KKK because he wanted to understand them.

And he would, you know, go to their meetings and he would go to their there and like it and they would they would never accept him of course, but individually.

He would, he would, you know, be part of their, their inner families, you know, they would go to barbecues, they would go, they don't have that relationship, that the group would not would never allow, but the individual. Yes, right. I think I know who you're talking about. I've forgotten his name. Yeah, that's kind of a point in that, regard about it. Yes, that's that's one way. It happened is,

They befriended each other nice, I guess. It was two individuals. You might be, might be the same. If them thinking, the same person they do know is they got to know their likes and dislikes and they ended up having similar likes and taste. You know whether it was jazz music or blues or you know particular ways of seeing the world, there were actually more similar than they realized and these became connections and back to this idea of I think we can actually in my view seek connection.

and once we start to understand who people are at their core, their core being, we start to open

To acceptance of where they're coming from. And that doesn't always mean that we like what they're doing. It just is a starting point.

You know, it we very often we come to situations especially in our relationships and you know, situations could be a marriage could be, were we start from the place of where we want that person to be, or what we expect that situation to be or wanted to be? And if we're not careful of precludes us from starting point, which is this is where we're starting right now. And we can't

someone or some situation to the next place, in many cases, if we aren't able to accept the circumstances and situation and the person for where they are and what's happening in the moment,

so you're example, in my clients, there's a number of clients that come to me, they've felt pressure because their particular race or their particular religion or they've received bullying because of that or they've been put in positions, they did not like over and over again, that became just basically,

That's a lot of pressure. So the idea is, how do we kind of take that part of what they've experienced and then put it in its proper context to the other parts of their life? Their upbringing, what they learned from particular individuals, what they picked up in their school environments, what the culture is talking to them about? It's important to have everything within a context. Again coming back to some themes here to have the hole.

Being is synthesis of the parts of this and we're very good. It seems like in the culture at least in general, at looking at the parts, the important piece is to bring them back together again as a new hole.

That helpful. Yes. Yes, that's very talented. You have any questions you've been silent? What's going on? Dad now, what's going on in my head? I think this is one of the most interesting topics with we've talked about. And it's very relevant today and I think what was going on in my head mostly is like how to find balance between what makes us parts of this.

You know what makes us? Yeah. What you may be unique. Yeah, but but not unique part of a group but then also, what makes us unique, you know, right. So so what what part of me is the actual core is it my religion or my race? Or is it all the other context that that we were talking about? How do we find balance between those things? And how do we make that come together, right? Yeah and when you talk about that, I think a lot of

Of the work I wanted you. I do with people is move them into the spiritual realm, whatever, that is okay. That is another Universal. I think amongst humanity is a desire for some kind of connection to something greater than ourselves. I think culture is, regardless of where they come from all over the world, have found ways to create rituals and systems, maybe, or religions, or paths to do that.

so,

What you're talking about. How do we develop balance of recognizing that we're unique? And we're also the same. We are attempting to differentiate ourselves, you know, as unique yet, we are also part of a whole

It's a good point.

Where do you see that happen?

Valentina in your immediate life.

I don't know, I think it's hard for me to answer that because now that you mentioned like the spiritual realm kind of, it makes sense, that, that would be where everything comes together. Could but not everybody, like,

Aspires to that. Yeah, let everybody. Yeah. Not everybody reaches that. And yet, there has to be a way in which that balance can be found in a more, you know?

I don't know, like basic way. Right? Well again it's the idea of connection and some base level it's always going to have tension in my view. There will always be tense as part of life, is the tension of trying to live in community in harmony with others. At least. That's been my experience. I mean, I've been

And a lot of folks, not just in counseling environments, but in my work environments, I spent a lot of time working in restaurants, which takes 12 Z to A lot of diversity. And I've been in recovery communities where some of those communities are pretty diverse. So sometimes having a common purpose, or a common

Reason for being together, can create that balance and coexistence because there's an overarching movement towards something that most of us agree to if you're in recovery Community. Generally, the agreed-upon goal or ongoing project is to be sober or to recover from trauma. So all the differences can be worked out yet. Everybody come back together again and find a common

Sort of place to meet and connect on that. We're all here. Okay, let's just get back to basics. Let's get back to what we're doing here. And misses the purpose of what we're doing in the recovery Community. You could even say it in a restaurant, you know, where there's a lot of diversity, we see the common, the common Endeavor is to cook the food creative, you know, make money. Create a

And you'll create an experience. So everybody's kind of coming together. So these are examples of what you're talking about. That could be many examples.

I think it's very difficult in politics because politics lot of politics is about power.

And power is not always about connection. Power is important, yet in politics

There's always more than what's happening. Now, we could say that every relationship is political in its own sense, and I think there's some, some, some truth to that. So there are areas where, if seems more difficult to find Harmony social media, as a platform where it's like, almost open Warfare sometimes.

Yeah, well speaking, speaking of political, not to go into that that not to turn that corner now, but I just would like to get you far down. As I feel like we're in a good place in my view but I'll take one more question. We'll see where we're at. Yeah. II think. Like one of the questions that I truly cannot find an answer to his, maybe you can help me is

why especially in politics? Why do so many people prefer to take one side as opposed to no sides?

So, it's easier for them to either pick one or the other and we're seeing that now with not just in the United States but everywhere where, where politics are, you know, they have been very polarizing, you know, more than any other time.

And it's it. I still can't find enough. People being skeptical about everyone, you know just saying hey you know what a is terrible and B is horrible. You know, they will always pick one. I do you have an answer for that? Well, I all I can relate as my own personal experience and I'd rather go into that field. Another podcast, to be honest because that's a really good topic that, you know, because this is a myself.

Had to contend with Within Myself about, you know, the, even the power of the polarizing of views and political viewpoints has sort of come into my own personal life. So I think it would be a really good topic and understanding for me what was going on for me? Because there's a lot there, I think. Because on that, I'm sure I thought the only person that I mean, I know I'm not the only person obviously that is aware of it, but I have my particular View.

From my own experience in my own life and then the people I work with and then the places I've inhabited in my life. I mean, I'm what 61. So I've been out there attempting to figure this s**t out for a long time and sometimes I feel like I'm better at it than others and that's when he got to get done and then all of a sudden it's not so that would be a good good topic to kind of just throw my two cents in there.

But I will tell you this that I had a client one time. Ask me.

It must be really hard for your partner to be in a relationship with you because your counselor or therapist or a mentor and I said, oh don't worry. She gives me plenty of opportunities to remind me of him, just human.

Great humbling. How about? Yes. Yes. And that's the perfect. Perfect way to close our, our first recording of This podcast which couldn't have been better. I have stink you so much for those who are just listening, you can always go to walk. The line now.com to learn more about Ives about Walk. The Line about the podcast and all the good things we

We doing. I've said Thank you. Thank you Valentina. Thank you. Rodrigo enjoyed it.

Perhaps their parents or certain family members, they still want to have a relationship with them. They still want to auto these folks. How do they work through what they have to work through towards a place where they can then sort of seek or offer forgiveness to the people that have hurt them? And I think that this takes a lot of work, to understand what we've done to ourselves.

It's a lot of what people don't see and are blind to: that we are the ones that put ourselves into harm's way. Based on childhood strategies and the way that we experience our upbringing and things that have happened to us can cause us a lot of hurt. Because of how the people that were supposed to take care of us have treated us.

So it's not so much about blaming our parents as much as it is that we had an experience that hurt deeply and when it happened, we really didn't have any outlet for that hurt to go. So what we do is we stuff it. And it's really at a much more tactical level. It's our systems or our nervous systems are reacting to something that's threatening, reacting to something that's holding us back.

And that tension that's created locks us up. And that experience of being, that's sort of aroused in a way where we're freaking out, but we really have no place to go because the surroundings won't permit it. People are yelling, screaming, we get lost in it. Someone's yelling at us. So we bury what it is it's happening to us and it gets stored in the body.

So this is stuff that is readily known more and more now. There are many experts that talk about this: Bessel van der Kolk, Ariel shorts, Peter Levine, a gab Mormon, Tay. These are all people that I have used to learn about these things. I also have studied with Brenda Schaffer. But the idea that this really important idea of the body and how people store pain that becomes an emotional memory and it's in the body and we don't really know what's going to trigger it. And when it will come back up, but once we're an adult, we do have to understand that what we experienced back then hasn't gone away. I was on a trip recently, and the captain of this ship that we were on said that where we were visiting, the footprints will disappear. However, the memories will endure and persevere. It's kind of the right words. And that's the way I think it is. We aren't back there anymore. We aren't back when things happened originally, when we were hurt, beat, yelled at, screamed at, accused, whatever it was.

But yet here we are essentially attracting the same emotional dynamic in our life as an adult. And now it's for all intensive purposes, it's just as painful as it was back then. But now we're an adult body. So now we can do something with it. Now we can act out on it, if we're not careful and we can either stuff it until we're ready to explode or we can start taking out on others.

So that's difficult to work through so that we can understand that. We then turn that on ourselves and we beat ourselves up because of the way we feel. We beat ourselves up. We sort of attack ourselves for being inadequate, being weak. And these are again, part of it. It's the meanings that we probably will place on what we're feeling.

So we have an, a particular sensation. We have a particular feeling. We don't even realize it's non-verbal. And then as we grow, develop, we get to adults, we've created a particular meaning around what it is we're feeling. And then that compounds the problem. Because now we have a particular script, a particular way of talking to ourselves, thoughts, beliefs that then trigger what's in our bodies, our bodies trigger themselves to replicate or create these meanings that we have created to make sense of what's happening. And usually they're negative. And usually they're against ourselves. So to move through that requires realizing that a lot of times we start working on this and we start to realize it.

The stuff hurt back then. And the people that did it, we either will say, well, they were doing the best they could, they didn't know any better. And there's a lot of truth to that yet at the same time, sometimes I wonder: people know what they're doing. People pick up on that. They knew that they're hurting someone and they keep doing it.

And people that are vulnerable will be at the mercy of those people.

To get beyond that -what I would call loyalty to the dysfunction of their environment that they're carrying - you have to break that and you have to get angry and sometimes you have to get angry at the people who were there to supposedly take care of you and did it in ways that they weren't fully conscious of what they were doing.

And they were conscious. So was both, nothing is absolute here. Each of us uniquely experiences this stuff. So we have to work through that. Really experience that pain that's been stored. And detach ourselves from the meeting to the best of our ability and observe what's happening to us, the sensations and see them as sensations apart from the meetings, because then the meetings will have to change.

Part of it is allowing what you're experiencing to flow. And that's where anxiety, depression, PTSD, trauma symptoms come up, this association disconnection, and to find someplace at safe where you can be honest with what you're experiencing, what you're feeling, to another person to open those back up in order to allow them to heal.

So it's a little bit to use a metaphor. You know, you put band-aids over yourself. When you're a kid, when you cut yourself and you have to cover those bands, you have to cover those cuts up when you're out in the world. But you'd have to find places to open them up to let them breathe because we have that healing mechanism within us, but it does require opening them back up.

Sometimes there's no anesthesia. You just do it. No spiritual anesthesia. It's tough. It is spiritual work again without the anesthesia.

So once we can kind of start to see what's happening and move beyond the anger, into the places where we were fearful, terrified, and rageful too, to a place of sadness and grieving, because we are essentially in my view, one way to think about it is we are angry about what we got and we're sad about what we didn't get, because there's a lot of things we don't get the ability.

We lose our innocence. There's nobody to help us, there's not guidance, ways to learn how to manage our emotions, how to develop a sense of purpose of acceptance of self-acceptance of course, in our sort of feeling of being okay and comfortable in our own skin while we're also learning how to overcome a very challenging and sometimes painful adversity.

So the forgiveness part comes after we've been with our own stuff and work through it and allow it to release enough so that we realize that we're all using that to hurt each other in some ways.

That would then move it into the place of compassion, which I think is really important here. In my practice of meditation, a big principle would be equanimity developing some balanced mind, some even temper. And then to be able to offer that compassion to myself and to others without making demands upon them, to be a certain way in order for me to move forward because then I'm essentially holding myself hostage to another person.