Right belief about Jesus shapes everything.

This is a short moment from my HCLI course explaining what John 1:1 teaches us about Jesus’s identity as God and his relationship with God.

John 1:1 gives us both:• Relation: the Word was with God • Identity: the Word was God

Learn more about HCLI:https://hcli.highlandscollege.edu/

What follows is more than an interview. It is a conversation about the kind of theological life worth pursuing: one rooted in the church, grounded in Scripture, sustained by faithful friendship, and handed down through conviction and character.

As I listened, I was especially struck by three themes: the importance of deep Christian friendship, the necessity of theology in service of the church, and the responsibility of leaders to leave behind not merely institutions or ideas, but faithfulness.

I hope this conversation serves pastors, students, scholars, and Christian leaders who want to think more deeply about calling, mentorship, and legacy.

Five Takeaways from My Conversation with David Dockery and Timothy George

1. Faithful friendship can shape a lifetime of ministry.What stood out immediately was the depth of a friendship forged over decades through shared convictions, theological labor, and mutual encouragement. Christian leadership is rarely formed alone.

2. Theology belongs in the life of the church.One of the clearest themes in this conversation was that theology is not meant to remain abstract or merely academic. It is meant to serve the people of God, strengthen the church, and guide faithful discipleship.

3. Christian higher education must be sustained by conviction.Dr. Dockery offered a compelling vision of education rooted in the lordship of Christ, the authority of Scripture, and the integration of faith and learning. Institutions do not remain Christian by inheritance alone, but by clarity, courage, and conviction.

4. Faithfulness is a better measure than prominence.Again and again, the conversation pointed away from visibility and toward fidelity—to Christ, to Scripture, and to the church. In an age preoccupied with platform and recognition, that priority feels especially timely.

5. Legacy is measured by what we hand down.In the end, the focus was not on titles, achievements, or reputation, but on what endures: love for the church, theological conviction, Christian character, and lasting faithfulness. That is the kind of legacy worth pursuing.

Chris Hanna:It is a real honor for me to be here today at Highlands College with Dr. David Dockery and Dr. Timothy George.

As I prepared for this conversation, the verse that came to mind was Hebrews 13:7: “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.”

Both of you have been leaders to me. You have spoken the word of God to me. You have been examples to me as theologians, educators, and leaders. So it is very special that we are here together.

Pastor Chris Hodges often encourages us to find mentors and to grow in that area, and I found that in both of you. As a historical theologian, scholar, and leader, Dr. George, you have shaped me deeply. And Dr. Dockery, as a Christian educator, biblical scholar, theologian, and institutional leader, you have shaped me deeply as well.

That is why I wrote Retrieval for the Sake of Renewal to capture Dr. George’s understanding of historical theology, and why I am writing a forthcoming book on Dr. Dockery’s understanding of Christian higher education and theological education, titled The Educator’s Sacred Calling.

If I am honest, I am a little nervous, because you both mean so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here.

Today I want us to focus on your friendship, your calling, and your legacy—and what all of us can learn from them.

So with that in mind, I would love to begin with your friendship.

Dr. George, how did your friendship with David Dockery begin, and what have you learned from him over the years?

Timothy George:I was thinking about that question because you told us in advance what you were going to ask, and I was trying to remember.

As best as my mind can recover it, our friendship began fairly early in our connection through the Evangelical Theological Society. We were both members. Later we both became presidents of that organization and were deeply involved in it. But in those days, in the early to mid-1980s, Southern Baptists by and large did not participate in ETS. It was considered more of a northern evangelical thing, and we tended to stay in our own world. But somehow both David and I found our way there.

I was introduced to David there, but I would say the most important bonding experience came in the summer of 1987. I was teaching at Southern Seminary in Louisville, and David was a visiting professor there from Criswell College. We had a chance to spend time together, and we have always remembered this.

We took a walk together through Cave Hill Cemetery in Louisville, where many of the great heroes of the Baptist tradition are buried—John R. Sampey, A. T. Robertson, John A. Broadus, James P. Boyce, and others. I used to take my students there. We would pray together and talk theology there.

On that walk, we began reflecting on how many people no longer really knew those figures beyond their names. And somewhere in that conversation came the idea: wouldn’t it be wonderful to remember these people in a way that would serve the church? That was the birth of our first co-edited book, Baptist Theologians.

That is how I remember it.

David Dockery:That is exactly right. I would add just one feature to the story.

I had the privilege of helping found the Criswell Theological Review, and because it was a new journal from a young institution, we were looking for advisors and contributors who could help establish its academic credibility. Lewis Drummond, who taught at Southern Seminary and was a close colleague of Dr. George, agreed to serve in that role. His first advice to me was simple: “You need to get Timothy George to write for you.”

So we began corresponding before we had really spent much time together in person. Timothy was a great postcard writer. He would send postcards signed with Latin phrases and script. So there was already the beginning of a friendship through letters, even before that longer conversation in 1987.

That summer solidified it. And now, for nearly forty years, I would say that one of the great gifts of God in my life has been the friendship of Timothy George.

Chris Hanna:That is wonderful.

As you reflect on your friendship with one another, what qualities do you admire most? Dr. Dockery, let me begin with you. What do you most admire in Dr. George?

David Dockery:I admire Timothy as a scholar of the highest level—an outstanding thinker who is able to engage the great ideas of history and the issues of the present through a remarkable historical lens. He brings the past to bear on the questions of today with unusual wisdom.

Second, I admire his love for the church. Timothy is an ecclesial theologian. Everything he has done, he has tried to do in a way that serves the church and extends the kingdom of God. He is an academic of the highest level, but he does not serve the academy as an end in itself. He serves the church. I have learned much from him there.

Third, there is the personal side of our friendship. We have counseled one another, redirected one another, supported one another, and shared life together. It has been a friendship in which our lives and work have been joined in ways that do not happen often.

And then, of course, our wives became friends as well. Lanese and Denise strengthened and deepened our friendship. We traveled together to England on Baptist history trips and to Germany and Switzerland on Reformation trips. Those experiences reinforced not only our friendship as scholars and friends, but our friendship as families.

Chris Hanna:Those are two remarkable couples indeed.

Dr. George, what would you say about Dr. Dockery?

Timothy George:The same thing he said about me—except in this case it would all be true.

David is first of all an exemplary Christian. He is a theologian and a thinker, and if I had to identify one area of specialization, though there are several, I would point to biblical interpretation. That was the area of his doctoral work.

He has devoted himself not only to helping people believe the Bible, but to helping them understand and interpret the Bible in a way that honors God and builds up the church. That has been one of his great services—not only to Baptists, though we are both Baptists, but to the wider evangelical community.

Chris Hanna:We have a lot of young leaders at Highlands College, and we often say that leaders are readers.

If each of you could recommend one book by the other for a young leader to begin with, what would it be?

Dr. George, if a Highlands College student were to read one book by David Dockery, where should they begin?

Timothy George:His book on the inspiration and authority of Scripture. You cannot do better than that.

That question is foundational. We may assume everybody already knows it, but we have to keep coming back to it, because the church periodically forgets it. The Bible is the Word of God, and its importance for our life and service to Christ can hardly be overstated.

Now, we do not worship the Bible. Sometimes we are accused of that. We worship the God of the Bible, and we know the God of the Bible by reading, studying, and feeding upon his Word. As the prophet says, “Your words were found, and I ate them.”

David has been a great champion in helping the church move beyond merely fighting about the Bible toward actually living out of its truth. He has elevated the conversation so that we not only affirm Scripture, but learn to live by it.

Chris Hanna:That is well said. We have used that book as a textbook at Highlands College, and it has been very helpful.

Dr. Dockery, what would you recommend from Dr. George’s body of work?

David Dockery:He has edited many outstanding books, especially on Calvin and Nicaea, but if I may cheat a little, I would name three authored works in three different areas.

First, his commentary on Galatians is brilliant. It combines careful attention to the biblical text with theological breadth and historical depth.

Second, his work on William Carey is deeply valuable and gives students a heart for missions and the global work of God.

But if I could put only one book into the hands of a Highlands College student, it would be Theology of the Reformers. That book gives students a vivid and compelling account of what God did in the sixteenth century. It helps them see the Reformation not just as history, but as theology, ministry, and providence.

Chris Hanna:I think that is exactly right. I was just speaking with a Highlands College student who read Theology of the Reformers and was bitten by the bug of theology and ministry through reading it. It is almost a dangerous book in that way—because once you read it, you want to read much more and then go do something for God with your life.

Let me ask another question.

Who were the mentors or models God used most deeply to shape your lives, and what did they give you? Dr. Dockery, let me begin with you.

David Dockery:The Lord has placed several people in my life who deeply influenced me. Timothy is not only a friend but a mentor, and I am grateful for that.

One early influence was my pastor when I was a young boy here in Birmingham, Darold Morgan. He was a serious interpreter of Scripture and deeply committed to the church and the unity of the church. He had studied with James Leo Garrett Jr., who later became my professor at Southwestern Seminary. Both of those men shaped me early on, especially in their commitment to the unity of the body of Christ.

Later, Carl F. H. Henry and Chuck Colson made a great difference in my life. And I also learned much about administration and leadership from university presidents and institutional leaders.

But if I think in terms of personal formation, theological convictions, and the kind of life I wanted to live, I would point especially to Darold Morgan, James Leo Garrett Jr., Carl Henry, and Chuck Colson.

Chris Hanna:Was it from Chuck Colson that the Christian worldview emphasis especially deepened for you?

David Dockery:Yes. Chuck Colson expanded my understanding and helped me move from theology to applied theology—to begin thinking in worldview categories.

In 1996, during my first year at Union University, I gave an inaugural address and sent it in printed form to a number of Baptist pastors. One copy made its way to First Baptist Church of Naples, Florida, where Chuck Colson was a member. The pastor gave it to him. Then one day I received a phone call from Chuck Colson. He said, “Do you believe this stuff?” I said, “Yes, sir.” He said, “I’m coming to Memphis to meet you.”

He did, and it made a huge difference in my life.

Both Timothy and I later served on the Prison Fellowship Board, and both of us held the Carl Henry Chair there. I also served with the Colson Center for Christian Worldview. Chuck invested deeply in me and gave me opportunities to serve alongside his ministries. I remain deeply grateful for him.

Chris Hanna:And both of you have also spoken about the influence of your mothers at key points in your formation.

Dr. George, who were the mentors who most shaped you?

Timothy George:Certainly some of the same people David mentioned influenced me greatly. Carl Henry and Chuck Colson both broadened my horizons. But I would add another figure who was very important in my own formation: George Huntston Williams.

When I was a student at Harvard, and later under his supervision, he gave me a powerful sense of the unity of the body of Christ. He had broad sympathies and a vast knowledge of Christian history. He helped me appreciate what he called our “speaking cousins”—those believers on the margins who are often neglected in the grand narratives of history.

His best-known book, The Radical Reformation, focused on those often-persecuted groups who stood outside the dominant centers of power. He helped me appreciate liberty of conscience and religious freedom in deeper ways, and that has remained deeply important to me as a Baptist and an evangelical.

Chris Hanna:Dr. Dockery, let us talk about the core convictions that have anchored you over the years. What convictions have served as a compass in moments of pressure, change, and responsibility?

David Dockery:You have to settle the question of who Jesus Christ is. Is he who he claimed to be? Is he who the apostles proclaimed him to be? Can you say, in truth, “Jesus is Lord”?

Closely tied to that is the question: what do you believe about Scripture? Is it truly the written Word of God? Can it be trusted? Can you stake your life on it?

Those are the two essential questions. There are many other important issues that require wrestling, prayer, and reflection. But once, by the work of the Spirit, you come to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, the next great question is what you believe about the Bible.

For me, settling that question shaped everything else—my philosophy of education, my understanding of doctrine and ethics, and the whole way I thought about Christian learning. The authority and sufficiency of Scripture became foundational.

Chris Hanna:And Dr. George, how would you answer that same question? What convictions have anchored you?

Timothy George:Certainly what David has said is essential. But I would express it this way: the central question of theology is the question Jesus asked—“Who do people say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

All of theology revolves around the person and work of Jesus Christ. That is the center of Scripture and the center of the Christian life.

I would add two more things.

First, the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is one, and God is three. The doctrine of the Trinity is essential for understanding the Bible and the Christian faith. I am grateful that in our lifetime we have seen something of a renaissance in Trinitarian theology. Some of the best work on the Trinity in more than a century is being written today.

Second, the church. As I grow older, I find myself drawn more and more to ecclesiology. God reveals himself in Scripture by the Spirit among his people. You cannot be a Christian without the church. The gospel is a churchly reality. Theology must remain rooted in the life of God’s people.

Those, to me, are among the primary things.

Chris Hanna:That leads directly to something I want to ask you.

Why has it mattered so much in your own life to keep theology connected to the life of the church? Why is it so important, especially in a place like Highlands College, not to separate the study of theology from the church?

Timothy George:Because theology that exists only as an exercise of the mind—as a merely intellectual enterprise—is a very dangerous thing.

Of course theology involves study, reading, and disciplined thought. But the church gives theology its focus, purpose, and grounding. Without the church, we become lost in abstractions—in wispy ideas detached from reality.

We are called to be servants of the church. Theology without the church is not worth doing. It becomes useless. It can even lead you astray into what I might call airy intellectualism.

If you have any of that, root it out.

Chris Hanna:Dr. Dockery, what would you add to that?

David Dockery:Not a thing. That is exactly right.

Chris Hanna:Then let me ask this: what makes Christian higher education truly Christian? And how do we maintain the Christian identity of Christian higher education so that it is not Christian in name only?

David Dockery:That is a great question, because sadly the history of Christian higher education is often the history of institutions losing their Christian identity.

You can begin with Harvard in 1636, then Yale in 1701, and continue down the East Coast through institution after institution. Many schools that began with robust commitments to Christ and the church eventually drifted.

So what makes Christian higher education Christian?

It is not enough simply to ask how education relates to the church, important as that is. It is not enough simply to ask how it helps my private spiritual experience, important as that is. The real question is this: how does the Christian faith bear upon the subject being studied—whether English, economics, business, biology, or anything else?

If all truth comes from God, then what is learned in the sciences is connected to what is learned in the humanities and in the professions. There is a unity of knowledge. Once that unity is fragmented, institutional mission is very difficult to sustain.

So what makes Christian higher education Christian is a commitment to the lordship of Christ over all learning, a commitment to the unity of knowledge, and an understanding of Christian worldview that bears on every field of study.

Every faculty member must embrace this mission. Every faculty member must bring not only Christian experience but Christian conviction to bear on the learning process. Not every student must already be a Christian, though of course one hopes the majority are. There is also an evangelistic dimension to such institutions.

But an institution must make these commitments clear and intelligible to those who teach, those who study, and those who support its mission.

Chris Hanna:I get to serve at Highlands College as a professor and academic leader in biblical and theological studies, and I often say that while every class is not a theology class, every class is theological because of these commitments.

Dr. George, what would you add about maintaining Christian identity in higher education?

Timothy George:I would say that the vision David has just articulated is not something one does alone. It is not a solitary project. It is a communal enterprise.

One of David’s great contributions has been to call Christian leaders, educators, professors, and thinkers together to articulate this vision and put it into practice. Through the institutions he has served and the organizations he has helped lead, he has given the Christian academic world both a vision and a community in which to pursue it.

This is a contested area. The question of what Christian education should be is highly controversial. We need leaders who will stand up and speak clearly, and David has done that. He has encouraged many others to come alongside and say, “Yes, this matters for the kingdom of God and the work of the gospel.”

Chris Hanna:We could not be more excited at Highlands College about the work of the International Alliance for Christian Education and the way God is using it to create that kind of unity and shared vision.

Let me ask one final question.

There is a beautiful word in our faith: tradition. Tradition means to hand down. From your lives and work, what do you most hope will be handed down to the next generation?

Dr. Dockery?

David Dockery:I would hope that what is handed down is a commitment to the people of God.

I would hope that in places where I have served, people might say, “See how they loved one another.” I would hope they would remember Christian kindness, the dignity of each person, and a shared life marked by genuine Christian piety.

Christian piety alone cannot sustain the mission of a Christian institution. But without authentic Christian living, an institution is Christian in name only. It may be intellectually Christian in some sense, but it will not embody whole-life discipleship.

So I would hope that, by the grace of God, some measure of whole-life discipleship has been evident—that standing shoulder to shoulder, arm in arm, hand in hand, with love and care for one another, we demonstrated the call of Christ in our lives for the good of others.

That, I hope, is what could be passed on.

Chris Hanna:That is beautiful.

Dr. George, what would you want handed down?

Timothy George:The word that comes to mind is faithfulness.

I fall short of it, but it remains the goal: fidelity. Staying by the stuff. Remaining faithful to the gospel, faithful to Christ.

Tradition is closely related to another word: traitor. Very quickly, tradition can become a form of betrayal. What keeps that from happening is faithfulness.

And then that faithfulness must be lived in a visible way. Jesus prays in John 17 that his disciples would be one so that the world may believe. People are watching.

So I would hope that whatever legacy remains would be one that turns people to Christ—to the light of the world, to the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

That is what we are called to do.

Chris Hanna:Dr. George, Dr. Dockery, thank you so much for this conversation.

Hebrews 13:7 gives us the right final word: “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.”

Thank you both for speaking the word of God faithfully, for living lives worthy of reflection, and for giving so many of us an example of faith to remember, cherish, and imitate—as leaders, pastors, educators, and Christians.

Thank you for it.

Timothy George:Thank you, Chris.

David Dockery:Yes, thank you, Chris, and thank you for what you are doing here—investing in the lives of students at Highlands College. We are grateful to God for you.

Timothy George:Indeed. I enjoyed this time with you.

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Before the show started, the hosts invited listeners to submit questions to be answered during the show. Excited by the opportunity, I sent in my question, hoping it might start an engaging discussion. To my surprise and delight, they not only answered it but used it to explore one of their key themes: the role of narrative in their episodes.

Below is the transcript of their thoughtful response to my question

How do you balance storytelling and historical accuracy when presenting complex topics?Narrative's Importance

Tom Holland: I think what we have found doing the podcast is that narrative is pretty essential to it, isn't it? So we are aware that we do fewer episodes, say, on social history. And I think the best episodes that we've done on social history have been episodes with narrative.

Titanic Example

Tom Holland: And I think particularly the Titanic, where we thought it was going to be one or two episodes. I think six episodes, because in fact the story of the Titanic was the story of class divisions, of a whole array of people coming from different classes, different backgrounds, different countries meeting on this ship, and obviously being joined in this terrible tragedy.

And I think if we set out to do an episode on social life in the Atlantic world of the Gilded Age, that would be much, much harder to track it as a podcast. But the story of Titanic made it much easier.

Narrative as a Framework

Tom Holland: So I think that we both passionately feel that narrative reveals a great deal about a period. It's not just the story itself, it's about the fact that it can serve as a clothes hanger from which you can hang so much else, so much kind of analysis.

Audience Feedback

Dominic Sandbrook: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that. I think when we asked people which episodes they enjoyed most, it’s almost always the one with a very strong narrative.

Early vs. Current Format

Dominic Sandbrook: And when we started the podcast, it was just general wittering. And now it's much more we follow a storyline.

Tom Holland: Structure.

Dominic Sandbrook: Yeah, structure. And actually, the stories do that, it is not just a podcast.

French Revolution as an Example

Dominic Sandbrook: So there's been a talk about the French Revolution. There was a book which I reviewed about two or three years ago by a British historian, Colin Jones. And it's about the fall of Robespierre in the French Revolution.

And it covers just about two days. It's about 500 or 600 pages, just on two days. So it's almost a minute by minute. And they can do that because they have very, very detailed police records. And that book captures better than any book I've read. Even better than that favorite book, Simon Schama’s Citizens.

It captures the contingency and the uncertainty of the revolution. That at any moment, no one knows what's going on. Things can work out in another way. There's a sense of chaos and of confusion, almost anarchy.

Contingency in Historical Events

Dominic Sandbrook: And I think too often, historians take that out of history. And concentrating on the blow by blow of the narrative puts that back in. Because the great mistake I think that historians often make is they write as though the future was always written. And I think remembering that it was always uncertain is key to making epic science a challenge.

Tom Holland: And I think it has become a trend, more generally, you know, coming from academic writing as well as podcasting and what many have studied, to focus on precisely what you said, the element of contingency in events.

So we, I think, feel this very strongly looking at two of probably the most famous examples of a dramatic rupture of the French Revolution and the outbreak of the First World War. And for most of our lives, they have been explained in terms of grand overarching theories, whether they were Marxist ones or in terms of nationalism or whatever, big abstract matters, I'm into a fondness to. But I think when you look at it as something that could happen very differently, you then have a sense of how important events are, how important contingency is.

And I think you can apply that to recent events. It wouldn't have taken much, for instance, to change the result of this election. But because the election has gone the way it is, all kinds of broad sweeping theories are being piled up in elections.

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Chapel with Highlands College students on studying the End Times.

Question:

For those of us who have been in church for any amount of time, or even if you're new to the faith, you've probably encountered different views on this topic.

I know students often have questions about it. Maybe they’ve grown up in a church where their pastors hold one view, or their parents have another perspective.

Before we dive into the various views, how should we even begin to approach them?

Answer:

I'd love to talk about this; it's one of my favorite topics, often referred to as “theological triage.” Different doctrines carry different levels of importance.

Resource: Finding the Right Hills to Die On: The Case for Theological Triage

Within the topic of eschatology, for instance, core truths stand out—Jesus is real, Jesus is risen, and He is returning. These are essential beliefs. It’s a foundational doctrine that Jesus is coming back. Denying His return denies something core to Christianity. But within that foundation, there are secondary and tertiary aspects to consider.

Three Guiding Principles

1. Different Viewpoints are Permissible

The first guiding point is this: different viewpoints are permissible. Faithful believers who trust the Bible and love Jesus may disagree on this subject. So, it’s okay to have varied viewpoints on eschatology. You must believe that Jesus is returning, but there’s room to differ on the surrounding details. As we’ll hear more later, interpretation plays a role here, which naturally creates space for disagreement.

So, point one: different viewpoints are permissible. If you and a friend or roommate have different perspectives on the end times, you can still get along. You can both love Jesus. Breathe easy.

2. Certain Truths are Essential

Secondly, certain truths are essential. While some end times details are unclear, there are core truths in the Bible that all Bible-believing Christians should agree upon. These are truths we must hold. So, we have both “things we may believe” that allow for disagreement, and “things we must believe,” which are the essentials.

3. Christians Should Work Towards Conclusions

Third, Christians should work towards conclusions. Even though people may disagree, this doesn’t mean we ignore the topic. Large sections of both the Old and New Testaments address eschatology. Disagreement shouldn’t lead us to surrender and say, “I guess I can’t understand anything.” No, you can study, find resources, and come to your own conclusions.

So, yes, there are different views, and people hold various beliefs, but what do you believe? Working towards conclusions is crucial. Just because people disagree doesn’t mean we can be lazy and think, “Well, I guess nobody knows.” God knows, and He has given us much to consider in His Word.

In summary, there are things we may believe (where disagreement is okay), things we must believe (the essentials), and things you might believe if you study further. I encourage you to study these matters prayerfully.

Summary of the Three Principles

* Things We May Believe: Allowing for disagreement

* Things We Must Believe: Essentials in Christian doctrine

* Things You Might Believe: Beliefs that can be formed with careful study

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