Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction: 2026 Predictions Episode Setup

(01:00) Prediction #1: The VC Talent Partner Exodus to AI Companies

(05:00) Prediction #2: AI Becomes the Default First Screen for Inbound

(12:00) Prediction #3: The ATS Becomes Invisible

(14:00) Prediction #4: 90% of Sourcing Will Be Automated

(15:00) Prediction #5: Outreach Automation Will Be an Unmitigated Disaster

(22:00) Sponsor: Metaview

(23:00) Prediction #6: Backlash Against Human Data Extraction

(26:00) Prediction #7: Social Unrest from White Collar Tech Workers

(31:00) Prediction #8: Agent Managers Emerge as High-Status Roles

(36:00) Prediction #9: Crazy Comp Packages for Non-Technical Talent

(43:00) Prediction #10: Foundation Labs Move Deeper Into Applications

(46:00) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NATHAN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nathan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathantanner/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:41) The breakdown story (crying on floor)

(05:49) “Weekend warriors” critique

(09:00) Fire your coach every year?

(10:03) Sponsor: Metaview

(12:47) $240K → $335K revenue reveal

(14:20) First full year: $335K breakdown

(19:14) “Hire Nathan or do nothing” strategy

(22:16) Burning the boats philosophy

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Chris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisyeh/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction: Infinite Learning & Blitzscaling Adaptability

(01:00) The Source of Energy, Public Speaking & Performance Background

(02:00) The Power of Unlearning & Staying Relevant

(04:08) Blitzscaling: Hiring for Adaptability & Resilience

(07:12) Picking Companies: Thinking Like an Investor

(09:08) Assessing Founders: The Travel & Summer Camp Effect

(10:14) Sponsor: Metaview

(11:36) Negotiating Founder Shares & Equity Splits

(17:00) Compensation Philosophy & The Numbers Hack

(19:13) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:26) Why AI Fluency is Required for 100% of New Hires(02:00) The 4-Level AI Fluency Rubric: Capable to Transformational(03:38) Demo 1: Bar Raiser Interview Agent(04:33) 730 Employees, 10 VPs - Job Level Discipline(05:47) Agent Explains WHY It Chose Each Question(06:27) The Spectrum of AI Interview Approaches(08:18) Demo 2: Performance Review Evidence Collection(09:21) The Blob Notes Emoji: Triggering Evidence Collection(10:33) Don’t Let Perfect Be the Enemy of Good(11:21) Future Vision: AI Coach Idling in Slack(13:25) “It’s Like Steroids” - Not AI Overlords Taking Over(13:51) Sponsor: Metaview(15:41) Live Demo: Blob Notes in Action(18:13) Employee Choice vs Mandates: Marketing Over Requirements(19:27) Leadership Doing Real Work - Few Companies Have Real Use Cases(21:00) Demo 3: One-on-One Meeting Coach (Most Sophisticated Build)(23:20) Calculating Talk-to-Listen Ratios(24:40) Scaling HR Business Partners - Every Company’s Manager Problem(26:07) Implementation Choices: On-Demand vs Required(27:35) Transparency: What Data? Where Stored? Who Sees It?(28:44) The Iron Man Suit vs AI Overlords(28:56) Where to Find Brandon - LinkedIn(29:12) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH BAZ, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Baz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cynthia-bazlamit-shrauner-683767/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:17) Intro

(01:06) The First Demotion Story: Getting Demoted at Facebook

(05:17) The Second Demotion: Hiring Christine Ellis & Doing It Again

(10:00) “Comparison is the Thief of Joy” - The Ego Struggle

(11:00) Sponsor: Metaview

(12:59) Meta’s Pandemic Hiring Spree: “We Were Sloppy”

(15:44) The Layoffs: Three Waves of RIFs, 8,000+ Cuts

(19:42) DEI & Resource Groups: From Fun to Corporate Chaos

(24:00) Closing

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH BRYAN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Bryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanpower/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction & Power Hour Returns

(00:55) Bryan’s Viral “How to Quit” Article

(04:00) Why Your Exit Becomes Your Entire Story

(06:00) Why Companies Don’t Teach Employees How to Leave

(09:00) The Loyalty Expectation Problem

(12:27) Sponsor: Metaview

(14:38) How Managers Screw Up Exits

(21:57) No Long Goodbyes: The Best Timing Advice

(24:13) What to Do When Someone Resigns

(27:30) Maintaining Relationships After You Leave

(29:26) Growth by Design Acquired by Cursor

(36:33) The State of the Recruiting Market

(40:00) AI Native Skills & The Future of Entry Level Hiring

(46:49) Cringey Corporate Lingo Game

(50:55) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:16) Intro(01:21) Building L&D from Scratch at Couchbase(02:45) Defining Good Leadership: The Three-Way Framework(05:04) Meeting People Where They Are: Escaping Theoretical Land(06:06) When Survey Results Disagree with CEO Priorities(07:35) Embedding L&D in the Fairway of the Job(08:19) Leaders Teaching Leaders: Why It Works(11:36) Coaching for Senior Leaders: Addressing the Intangibles(13:35) Hiring for Modern L&D: New Skills Required(14:25) The Career Development Problem: Everyone Wants It, Nobody Does It(16:30) Why Career Ladders Become Checkbox Exercises(19:01) The Ladders Dilemma and Being Transparent with Employees(20:10) Treating Employees Like Adults(20:59) Outro

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:57) Post-Acquisition Power Dynamics: The Humbling Moment

(03:00) HR’s Inflection Point: More Responsibility, Same Resources

(05:12) Top 5% HR Leaders: Show Courage and Speak the Language of Business

(06:59) What ‘Understanding the Business’ Really Means

(08:15) The Reality Check: HR’s Impossible Workload

(10:25) Sponsor: Metaview

(11:47) The Troubling Trend: AI Up, Leadership Development Down

(13:50) The Future of Management: NVIDIA’s Model and Investing in ICs

(18:18) Ruthless Experimentation and the Death of Best Practices

(20:00) Building Credibility: Sharing Both Wins and Losses

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(04:15) HR’s Fundamental Trust Problem & Designing for the Minority

(08:30) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:00) The Opportunity Cost of Distrust

(12:00) The HRBP Role: Why It’s Broken & How to Fix It

(15:30) What HR Leaders Are Talking About: DEI, AI & Merit

(19:53) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:07) Question about stock options for all employees

(01:48) Carta’s philosophy on making everyone an owner

(03:32) Moral case for giving equity to everyone

(05:07) Story about Carta’s employee refresh and Fred Wilson

(06:21) Challenge of educating employees on equity

(08:28) Pendo’s approach to equity education and round tables

(09:19) Setting expectations with $0 default value

(10:08) Sponsor - Metaview

(11:29) Cost of labor adjustments for equity across locations

(13:00) Administrative challenges of geo-based equity adjustments

(14:16) Employee communication and comparison issues

(16:10) Board tension over equity dilution decisions

(17:28) Attracting great talent requires competitive compensation

(18:06) Moral case and taxes of giving equity

(19:00) Importance of working with equity experts

(19:46) Closing thoughts on geo strategy and communication

(21:34) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(03:22) Dear Heretics: What to Know Before Your First RIF

(05:10) The Carta Layoff Playbook: Cut Deep, Stay Humane, Do It Once

(09:19) Sponsor: Metaview

(10:41) Change Management: Why Before and After Matter Most

(15:00) Opt-In Severance and Tucking In Top Performers

(19:00) Designing for Trust Over Fear

(22:04) Leadership Accountability and the Golden Rule

(24:11) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:19) What Ex-Amazon Talent Deserves

(01:22) A Post Full of Assumptions

(02:41) The X Response: Out of Touch and Ego-Driven

(03:11) Sponsor: Metaview

(03:34) The Remote Work Reality: That Era Is Over

(04:39) The ChatGPT Turning Point: When Employment Fell Off a Cliff

(06:01) Why This LinkedIn Post Won’t Help Her Job Search

(06:29) The Coming Social Unrest and Displaced Tech Workers

(07:40) The Grinding Mindset

(09:09) When the Rules Changed Overnight

(10:31) The FAANG Halo Effect Is Dead

(11:55) The Quality of Life Fork: Ejecting from Tech

(13:00) Re-Underwriting Your Career in the New Reality

(14:20) Expectations Minus Reality Equals Happiness

(14:39) Hedging Your Bets: Diversify Before It’s Too Late

(15:52:) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH ARNNON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Arnnon: linkedin.com/in/arnnongeshuri

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/en/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(0:00) Intro

(1:12) Three Key Lessons from Working with Elon Musk at Tesla

(3:36) Why Snowflake: Reinventing the People Function

(4:33) The Three-Pronged AI Framework: Automate, Augment, Human-Only

(12:02) Sponsor: Metaview

(19:45) Data Analytics as the Backbone of HR

(24:00) Building the Winning HR Team Portfolio

(27:08) Speed Through Imperfection: Fast Pilots and Iteration

(29:00) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH MOLLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Molly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mograham/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Glue Club:

https://www.glueclub.com/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:43) Origin of “Giving Away Your Legos”

(02:28) Emotions at Work

(02:49) Meet Bob the Monster

(04:15) Founder Depression Reality

(06:27) The Emptiness of Startups

(08:00) Life as a Barter Economy

(09:14) “I Can’t Do Math” - Professional Moron Strategy

(12:00) Growth Solves All Problems

(13:00) When Leaders Hate Each Other

(14:20) 50% Executive Hiring Success Rate

(17:00) 18-Month Executive Tenure

(18:34) Business First, Not Happiness

(21:00) Era of Excess Is Over

(21:51) Best Interview Question

(22:05) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH VIET, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Viet: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vietnguyen6/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Vercel: https://vercel.com/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Progress Over Perfection

(01:00) Why Throwing Messy Data at AI Actually Works

(01:37) The Three-Hour Experiment That Changed Everything

(02:38) Create Leverage Where Possible

(03:30) Do Nothing vs. Do Something: The Real Choice

(04:00) Sponsor: Metaview

(04:14) Interview Begins: Meet Viet Nguyen

(04:51) The Rejection That Led to Friendship

(05:26) The Five-Year Tour of Duty in Recruiting Ops

(06:37) From Zero Coding Skills to Building AI Tools

(08:00) The Gaspar Effect: Decoding Your Best Interviewer

(10:30) What Makes a Great Interviewer Great?

(13:45) Building the Automated Back-Channel Reference Tool

(17:20) The RAG Database That Knows Everyone

(20:00) When AI Says “No Connections Found” (And Why That’s Okay)

(23:15) The Webhook That Keeps Your Database Fresh

(26:51) Perfect Is the Enemy of Progress

(28:00) “Anybody Can Cook” - The Non-Technical Builder’s Manifesto

(28:27) Automating Interview Debriefs: The Next Frontier

(29:28) Real-Time Debrief Summaries: The Dream State

(30:04) Where to Find Viet

(30:33) Community Show and Tell: The Vision

(31:15) We’re All Stupid Together (And That’s the Point)

(32:05) Friday Night Recruiting Projects

(32:18) Wrap

Jason James doesn’t sugarcoat it: recruiting coordinators and sourcers won’t exist in 5 years. In this episode, James (Co-founder and COO of Tezi) sits down with Kelli and Nolan to discuss how to screen 3000 applicants in minutes, why most great resumes just rode the elevator up at hypergrowth companies, and why AI bias audits set a higher standard than humans ever could.

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH JASON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasontezi/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Tezi: https://tezi.ai/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:55) Meet Max: The AI Agent Replacing Recruiting Busywork

(03:16) AI Bias vs Human Bias: Which Is Fairer?

(06:08) Human-in-the-Loop: AI Recommends, Humans Decide

(07:34) AI Interviews at Top of Funnel: What Works, What Doesn’t

(11:00) Standing Out in a Crowded AI Recruiting Market

(14:26) Sponsors: Ethena & Metaview

(17:18) “RCs and Sourcers, Find Something Else”

(20:30) The New Grad Opportunity: Alpha in a Tough Market

(22:23) “Riding the Elevator Up”: The Resume Pedigree Problem

(24:26) How to Spot Resume Riders vs Real Contributors

(26:00) 100-Hour Weeks and the 9-9-6 Culture Debate

(30:00) “The Best Culture Is Growth”

(31:00) Tezi’s Culture: Committed to Calm, Team of Adults

(34:00) What’s Next for Tezi?

(34:56) Wrap

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Metaview:

https://www.metaview.ai/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:35) Why Metaview Built AI Sourcing

(02:20) The Vision: Humans and AI Working Together

(03:09) Technical Breakthrough: Browser Use and Computer Use

(04:41) Beta to GA Launch Story

(05:01) Promptless Sourcing Feature

(06:36) Sponsor: Metaview

(07:58) Demo

(26:38) Data Sources and LinkedIn Compliance

(28:01) Future: ATS Integration and Multi-Database Search

(30:13) What’s Coming Next for Metaview

(31:29) Product Development Philosophy

(32:04) How to Try Metaview Sourcing

(32:33) Closing

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction: The Bonus Program Question

(01:04) The Cyclical Wave & Sales Incentives

(01:42) Why Early-Stage Companies Struggle

(02:46) The Coin-Operating Problem

(03:26) The 96% Problem: Legacy & Recruiting Pressure

(04:34) You Can’t Put the Toothpaste Back

(05:30) Equity Over Bonuses

(06:09) Inconsistent Application Across Teams

(06:43) Walking It Back Is Brutal

(08:06) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:28) Technical Debt vs People Debt

(11:10) Second Order Consequences

(12:31) MBOs Are a Fable

(12:53) The Solution: Sprint Incentives

(14:04) Surprise and Delight: Spot Bonuses

(15:08) Discretionary Budgets & Agility

(15:54) Final Thoughts: Avoid People Debt

(15:59) Outro

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The “No Private DMs” Rule

(01:04) First Reactions: How This Would Actually Work

(01:54) The Case for Transparency: Underground Slack Channels Are Toxic

(02:35) The Reality Check: Leaders Still Need Private Conversations

(03:42) Is Radical Transparency Just Performance Art?

(04:20) The Productivity Problem: Slack Surfing vs Getting Work Done

(05:11) Creating a “How We Slack” Document with Clear Rules

(06:15) Using Public Channels to Develop Holistic Leaders

(07:13) The Jensen Huang Model: Why He Doesn’t Do One-on-Ones

(08:12) Sponsors: Ethena | Metaview

(11:34) Hyper-Transparency from the CEO Builds Trust

(12:31) It All Comes Down to Judgment

(13:11) The Audio Message Revolution: Why Voice Beats Typing

(15:20) Good vs Bad Audio Messages: It’s About Sender Judgment

(16:15) The 10x Pace: Why Traditional Meeting Cadences Don’t Work Anymore

(17:34) Final Thoughts: Experiment with Your Communication Style

(17:46) Outro

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH SALLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Sally: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallythornton/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Forshay: https://forshay.com/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:46) The Trust Barrier: Why Companies Resist Fractional Work

(03:34) The TAM Debate and Market Dynamics Post-COVID

(05:14) The Dirty Secret: There’s No Such Thing as Fractional Work

(06:34) Sponsors: Ethena | Metaview

(10:01) Who’s Buying and Why Finance Gets It

(11:06) Let’s Talk Money: The 65/35 Structure and Market Rates

(12:30) The Honeymoon Phase: Managing Boundaries and Expectations

(14:44) How to Assess Fractional Executives: The 75% Rule

(16:31) From Interim to Modular: How the Market Evolved

(18:04) The Black Hole Question: Why Nobody’s Calling You Back

(19:36) Network for Yourself: Nobody’s Managing Your Career But You

(21:36) How to Sustain 15 Years: Running Experiments & Following Curiosity

(22:31) Closing Thoughts: Agents for Executives Don’t Yet Exist

(23:11) Outro

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Didier: https://www.linkedin.com/in/didierelzinga/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Culture Amp: https://www.cultureamp.com/

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:30) From Harry Potter to Building Culture Amp

(02:16) What Is a Culture-First Company?

(03:19) The Coherency Matrix: Trust vs. Mission Orientation

(04:40) Growth: The One Thing That’s Never Changed

(05:36) Leaders Matter More Than Managers (The Data)

(07:09) Don’t Bother Convincing People Who Don’t Get It

(08:02) How Structured Reviews Closed the Gender Gap

(09:17) Sponsor: Ethena | Metaview

(12:39) Data Is Just the Start of Honest Conversations

(13:28) Esther Perel: Leaders Don’t Know How to Say No

(14:16) My Engagement Survey Mistake as CPO

(15:32) Feedback Is Not a Gift, It’s a Workout

(16:23) How We Run Culture Amp: Values and Growth

(18:45) We Can’t Be Everything for Everyone

(20:07) Storytelling: The Most Important Leadership Skill

(22:07) Finding Your Authentic Narrative

(23:32) Wrap

Support our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH L.J., NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

L.J.: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lbrock/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Coinbase: http://www.coinbase.com/

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:46) Banning Politics at Work

(02:29) Backlash and Reality: “You’ll Never Work Again”

(04:32) The Near-Death Moment

(05:22) How Coinbase Creates Radical Ideas

(06:34) Talent Density: The Future of Hiring Standards

(09:04) CEO Approval for Every Hire

(09:14) Real-Time Feedback: Eliminating Manager Bias

(11:33) Performance Systems That Don’t Suck

(13:34) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(16:43) Work Trials

(15:37) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:43) Work Trials: The 12-Week Internship Strategy

(19:49) Single Pay Target

(21:00)Executive Alignment on No Negotiation

(22:03) Stock Grants: From Four Years to One Year

(23:17) Building the Next Generation of CHROs

(26:40) Closing

Support our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:40) H1B Visa Impact on Tech

(11:48) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(15:25) Confluent People Team Offsite Recap

(20:37) Sponsor: Metaview

(22:27) Contrarian HR Beliefs & Organizational Leadership

(27:34) Fashion Roast: Is Silicon Valley Dressing Up?

(29:08) Wrap

Support our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:13) Three Core Goals for New CPOs

(01:41) Common Fail States to Avoid

(02:03) Over-Communicating with Your CEO

(02:23) Building Executive Relationships Beyond One-on-Ones

(02:58) Getting to the Ground Floor: The Modern Executive Approach

(03:19) The Colleen McCreary Method: 100 One-on-Ones in 90 Days

(04:26) Quick Wins and Board Relationship Strategy

(04:44) Four-Pillar Framework in Action

(05:34) Pre-Start Transparency: Setting Expectations Early

(06:40) The Four Pillars: Listen, Execute, Strategize, Build

(08:18) The Brutal Reality: 3X Speed for Three Months

(09:15) Sprint vs Marathon: Managing Energy and Family Expectations

(09:58) Reframing “S**t Shows” as Solvable Problems

(11:22) The Critical Importance of In-Person Time

(12:13) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(15:22) Building on Company Strengths vs Starting from Scratch

(16:31) Team Building Strategy: Know Before You Walk In

(17:47) Making “Unnatural” Efforts for Face-Time

(18:33) Build Your Scaffolding or Die: The Team Priority

(20:14) Ditch HR Speak: Talking Business, Not Corporate Vernacular

(21:47) CEO Shadowing: What It Really Means

(23:00) Real Partnership: Daily Communication and Quick Feedback Loops

(23:59) Sponsor: Metaview

(25:18) The Bait-and-Switch Problem in Executive Hiring

(27:10) Market Reality: Nine-Month Average Tenure Crisis

(29:21) Board Relationships and Air Cover Strategy

(30:10) Building Your Narrative: Board Meeting Preparation

(31:41) Documentation Strategy: Journaling and Whiteboarding

(32:09) Wrap

Support our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH NICOLE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nicole: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ngunara10/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Manifest Law: https://manifestlaw.com/

Gary Tan’s LinkedIn post: A $100K H1B fee won't bother big tech…

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:51) What Happened Friday Night: The $100K H-1B Bombshell

(02:53) Monday Reality Check: What We Actually Know

(04:16) Clear vs. Unclear: Exemptions and Renewal Definitions

(07:49) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(10:58) Crisis Response Strategy: Audit, Pause, and Pivot

(15:56) The Alphabet Soup: Alternative Visa Pathways

(21:19) Sponsor: Metaview

(23:08) The O-1 Opportunity: 94.5% Approval Rates Explained

(24:43) The Startup Dilemma: Gary Tan vs. Big Tech Advantage

(28:57) Strategic or Chaotic? The Department of Labor Clue

(30:13) America's STEM Pipeline Problem: The Real Policy Driver

(32:21) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH BRYAN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Bryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanpower/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Nextdoor: https://nextdoor.com

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:00) The Tinkerer vs. The Resisters

(03:00) The AI Bubble and Workplace Resistance

(05:00) Project Neighbor: Nextdoor's AI Initiative

(07:00) Case Study: Building AI Training with ChatGPT

(09:00) Mental Model Shift: AI as Teammate, Not Tool

(10:00) Scheduling One-on-Ones with Custom GPTs

(10:51) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(14:01) Executive Offsite Planning: AI in Action

(16:00) The Onboarding Problem: Context and Custom GPTs

(18:00) Compensation GPT: Domain-Specific AI Applications

(21:00) Output and Velocity: Gamma and Slide Creation

(22:43) Sponsor: Metaview

(24:37) Optional or Essential: The Future of AI Adoption

(26:00) The Mass Extinction Event for Knowledge Workers

(30:00) Creating Permission to Tinker

(32:00) Restructuring Executive Time for AI

(34:00) Corporate Lingo Roast

(44:08) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH KATELIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Katelin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katelinholloway/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Seven Seven Six: http://sevensevensix.com

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:27) How HR "Found" Katelin: The Accidental Career Path

(02:02) Pixar University: Learning from World-Class People Operations

(03:16) Meeting Alexis Ohanian: The Reddit Turnaround Story

(04:12) When Employees Refused to Wear Company Swag

(04:43) Why Hard Challenges Build Deeper Professional Bonds

(05:42) From Boardroom to Back Room: The VC Industry Problem

(07:24) Why Early-Stage Investing IS People Work

(08:52) The "Talent Partner" Problem: Wasted Potential in VC

(09:40) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(12:03) The Marc Andreessen Challenge: Selection vs. Support

(13:23) Platform Shifts Are Disrupting Venture Capital

(14:07) Product and People First: 776's Different Approach

(15:30) The Tactical Playbook: How to Break Into Venture

(15:49) Build Founder Relationships, Not VC Relationships

(16:22) The "How Can I Help?" Problem: Why Most VCs Fail Founders

(17:39) From Advisor to Angel: Getting Equity Without Cash

(18:28) The Golden Rule: Genuine Help Must Come First

(20:06) Ed Catmull's 5-Year Rule: Knowing When to Leap

(21:57) Why the Smartest People Never "Figure It Out"

(22:26) Closing: Building the Future of Venture Capital

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH IAIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Iain: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertsiain

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Airbnb: http://airbnb.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:08) "Everything Needs to be Designed" Philosophy

(02:48) Founder Mode: Leadership Through Collaboration

(05:50) The One Roadmap Strategy

(08:04) Prototyping Human Experiences

(12:14) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(14:42) Live and Work Anywhere: The Contrarian Bet

(18:12) Talent Strategy & Future of Work

(20:19) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview 10x Recruiting Podcast - instead of recycled LinkedIn takes, you get contrarian insights from operators who've actually built elite talent machines. Instead of theory, you get real tactics and metrics from leaders at Vercel, Coinbase, and Uber.

Head to The 10x Recruiting Podcast for more interviews like this one: https://www.metaview.ai/resources/10x-recruiting

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/siadhal

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction: The Trough of Disillusionment

(01:41) The Dinner Revelation: "We Don't Do S**t"

(03:31) MIT Study: 95% of AI Pilots Are Failing

(04:19) "They're Doing It Wrong"

(07:02) The Human Curse of Instant Gratification

(08:51) Early Adopters vs. The Wait-and-See Crowd

(10:46) The Expectations Correction

(12:33) Sponsors: Metaview 10x Podcast | Planful

(14:25) The 30-Minute Rule: Small Wins Add Up

(15:23) Stop Scaring People

(16:59) Enterprise Reality Check

(19:11) The Four Buckets of AI Value

(21:16) Compensation Revolution

(24:06) The Future of Compensation Strategy

(28:46) The Great Adoption Debate

(32:29) Forward Deployed Engineers: The New Reality

(33:29) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH MARK, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Mark: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marklobosco/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(01:24) Introducing Hiring Assistant: LinkedIn's First Agentic Product

(03:20) The ChatGPT Moment: Microsoft Partnership Changes Everything

(05:30) Inside the Intake Process: From Chat Interface to Candidate Search

(08:44) The Magic of Agentic Sourcing: "Go Get a Cup of Coffee"

(10:06) Purple Squirrel Syndrome: Faster Feedback Loops for Hiring Managers

(11:21) "I Love My Job and I Hate My Day": The Recruiter's Dilemma

(12:06) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(14:34) LinkedIn Profile Optimization: The New Resume Reality

(17:04) ATS Integration: The Next Generation of System Connect

(18:33) The Beginning of the End of Sourcing

(19:26) Charter Customer Success: Global Construction Company Results

(22:30) AI Tool Overwhelm: What Does This Replace?

(26:33) Product Access: Who Gets Hiring Assistant?

(27:00) The Open to Work Banner Debate

(28:12) Profile Pictures and Bias: Microsoft's Responsible AI Approach

(30:22) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:48) Dear Heretics: The Board Question

(01:15) There Is No Best Practice

(02:38) Know Your Level (Don't Be 27 at DoorDash)

(03:49) If You Don't Set Strategy, Someone Else Will

(05:34) The Carta Framework: Show Value, Ask for Help

(06:30) Earn the Right Through Your CEO

(07:28) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:00) Board Presentation Framework

(11:00) Run It Like a Business: The QBR Method

(11:51) Building Board Relationships: Start Early

(13:00) They're Just F*cking People

(14:00) Board Members Are Your Career Funnel

(15:50) Start With One: The Relationship Strategy

(17:16) The Loyalty Warning: Team CEO, Period

(19:32) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH DHH, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

DHH: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-heinemeier-hansson-374b18221/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Ruby on Rails: https://rubyonrails.org/

37signals: https://37signals.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:34) "I Want My Code to Sing": Why Programming Is Poetry

(04:35) How We Built a Company That Runs Itself

(07:34) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(08:34) The 40-Hour Work Week That Silicon Valley Hates

(11:05) The Remote Work Wars: Why Both Sides Are Wrong

(15:14) "No Politics at Work": The Two Weeks That Changed Everything

(17:00) How Wokeness Held Corporate America Hostage

(22:16) The Hardest Two Weeks of My Professional Life

(25:28) The DEI Deception: Why Equity Isn't Equality

(27:40) Why HR People Don't Suck (And Founders Need Them)

(31:00) Final Thoughts: People Go Crazy When Work Is Everything

(33:35) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Steve: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cadigan

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Metaview 10x Podcast: https://www.metaview.ai/resources/10x-recruiting

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:50) LinkedIn's Identity Crisis: When Your Product Is Your Problem

(02:40) The Million-Dollar Question: "Why Would Anyone Want to Work Here?"

(04:35) HR's Only Two Products: Judgment and Credibility

(05:00) The Performance Review Rebellion

(05:16) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(07:21) Jeff Weiner's Intensity Philosophy: "I Live Off Chaos"

(08:10) The Vulnerability Breakthrough: How a CEO Learned to Inspire

(10:15) The Ownership Revolution: Why Leadership Teams Must Own HR

(11:15) Remote Work Reality Check: "We Don't Know Yet"

(12:00) Blitz Scaling Failures: Inheritors vs. Builders

(13:43) The Perfectionist's Trap: "Do You Hear All Those Balls Dropping?"

(14:20) Why He'll Never Return: The Six-Year-Old's Question That Changed Everything

(15:27) Future of Work: From Buy Talent to Build Talent Economy

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Dave Margulius discussing Quizlet's remarkable 18-year journey from a bootstrapped startup founded with teenage co-founders to a globally successful education platform, sharing insights on building company culture, managing young talent, transitioning from founder to board member, and maintaining mission-driven values while achieving sustainable growth.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Related article:https://www.businessinsider.com/att-ceo-memo-workplace-loyalty-dead-employees-job-security-2025-8

Nolan's Linkedin post:https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nolan-church_when-can-we-eliminate-employee-engagement[…]m=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLw

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:50) The 73% Response Rate That Changed Nothing

(02:18) Devil's Advocate: Why Companies Think They Need Surveys

(03:34) The Second Order Problem: Getting Data, Doing Nothing

(04:30) "Get Out of the Ivory Tower"

(05:28) Exit Interviews vs. Real Conversations

(06:41) The Employee Perspective: Anonymous Survey Skepticism

(07:37) The Performative Dance Exposed

(08:43) Surveys as Substitutes for Real Leadership

(09:13) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(11:41) Better Alternative: Executives in the Dirt

(13:25) The Venture Capital Leadership Model

(14:49) The Small Minority That Actually Cares

(15:40) The Semantics Problem: Stop Saying "Engagement"

(17:00) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH DAVE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Dave: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davemargulius

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Quizlet: https://quizlet.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:00) The $5 Trillion Education Opportunity

(04:06) Meeting Andrew - The 17-Year-Old Co-Founder

(06:04) CEO Transitions and Early Career

(09:11) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(12:10) Building a Teenage Team

(16:03) Managing Young Talent and Pure Adrenaline

(19:17) The Shift to VC Funding

(22:15) Company Culture and Values

(26:19) Mission vs ROI Balance

(29:05) 18-Year Journey and Staying Competitive

(32:01) Employee Value Proposition and Liquidity

(35:00) Competition and Market Position

(36:06) Closing Thoughts

(37:27) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:42) The Performative Checkbox Problem

(01:38) The Fear Factor: Why Employees Won't Tell the Truth

(02:39) The Real Exit Interview

(04:06) The Drug Story: When Exit Interviews Actually Work

(06:06) The Diagnostic Fallacy

(07:18) The Neutral Feedback Myth

(08:47) The Art of Information Filtering

(10:35) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:43) The Future People Leader Debate

(16:49) Captain vs. Crew: Who Should Own These Problems?

(18:11) The Completely Incomplete Nature

(18:27) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH CASEY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Casey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywoo

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Operators Guild: https://operators-guild.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:15) WeWork Experience: Working with Adam Neumann

(02:52) Key Lessons from WeWork

(04:18) Current Market Climate & AI Impact

(05:21) The AI Revolution in Customer Support

(07:00) AI Management & the "Iron Man" Approach

(07:31) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:38) The Unstoppable Nature of AI Adoption

(11:31) The Rise of the Operator: Casey's Personal Journey

(14:02) Operators Guild: From 9 to 900 Members

(14:20) The Four Operator Personas

(15:17) Why Titles Have "Screwed Us"

(15:35) The Navy SEALs Analogy

(16:27) Building Successful Communities

(17:55) Do You Ever Miss Operating?

(18:43) The Future Path: From Operator to Founder

(19:10) Breaking the Retirement Mindset

(19:56) Advice for Operators: Have Confidence

(21:28) The Power of Team Building

(22:00) The Next Level: Capital & Founding

(22:31) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Prem's Bombshell Tweet

(01:32) The DeepMind vs Cognition Choice

(02:16) Clarifying the Exploding Offer

(04:15) Kelly's Google Looker Experience

(05:00) Why Contract Protections Don't Matter

(06:07) Leadership Accountability

(07:16) Silicon Valley's Broken Unwritten Rules

(08:38) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(11:37) Culture vs Money in Acquisitions

(13:00) First Principles: The New Acquisition Reality

(14:56) Gary Tan's Tone-Deaf Response

(15:41) The Chaos of Modern Tech

(17:00) The Power of Social Media Transparency

(17:49) Wrap-Up

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH ANDY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Andy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyprice1/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:02) Why Executive Hit Rates Are So Low

(04:01) The Artisanal Process: "Soaking" with Companies

(05:21) Back-Channeling Strategy

(07:11) Recruiters Are Overpaid: The Real Work Happens After Hire

(08:24) When Not to Hire - Too Early Stage Warning Signs

(09:01) Sponsors: Planful & MetaView

(12:46) How to Vet Search Firms

(14:00) Experience vs. Trajectory

(16:17) Scaling Up and Comers

(17:30) Executive Career Management

(20:25) Executive Tenure: Why the "One Year BS" Doesn't Work

(22:36) The Authenticity Generation

(23:52) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Opening & Context

(01:51) Initial Reactions

(05:11) The Hypocrisy Factor

(08:23) Leadership Responsibility

(10:00) Work-Life Integration

(15:58) Modern Visibility

(18:00) Hypothetical Solutions

(21:26) The Gwyneth Paltrow Response

(25:00) Impact on Employees

(26:00) Industry Implications

(30:14) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH SARAH, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Sarah: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahtilley/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

ServiceNow: https://www.servicenow.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:09) What is ServiceNow?

(04:22) The Two-Speed AI Strategy

(13:08) Getting Started with AI Transformation

(20:11) The Self-Service Recruiting Era

(25:02) The Low Hire, Low Fire Market

(28:00) Tracking AI Adoption

(32:29) Quality of Hire Deep Dive

(35:43) The Future: Skills-Based Hiring

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH MELANIE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-naranjo

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Ethena: https://www.goethena.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:44) CEO-CHRO Partnership Transformation

(02:23) The State of HR Leadership

(04:08) The HR Crisis Revealed

(05:20) The Root Cause Analysis

(06:58) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:00) The Anti-Empathy Argument

(12:45) HR Community Dysfunction

(14:21) The Gender Dynamics Truth

(15:28) Executive Team Toxicity Exposed

(17:13) The Politics Behind Dysfunction

(19:39) Beyond Meritocracy

(21:00) The Three Questions Framework

(21:54) The Anti-PIP Philosophy

(24:00) Direct Feedback That Works

(24:42) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Christine: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christine-centa-0a809b7/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

HashiCorp: https://www.hashicorp.com/en

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction & Christine's Background

(01:15) The Compensation Specialist to CPO Transition

(02:26) Current Compensation Landscape & Market Data

(04:00) The Midpoint Experiment

(05:28) Equity Strategy & New Grant Structures

(06:20) Going Public: Private to Public Transition

(07:28) Sponsor: Planful | MetaView

(10:27) Remote Work Philosophy & Scaling Challenges

(11:53) The Connection Crisis

(13:00) Leadership Dynamics: The Professor & Accountant

(13:51) Transparency as Strategy

(14:40) AI Strategy & Implementation Reality

(16:00) AI in Recruiting: The Future Frontier

(17:17) The AI Arms Race

(18:00) The Work Behind the AI Dream

(19:25) Preparing Teams for AI Future

(20:09) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED LINKS:

Windsurf’s CEO goes to Google; OpenAI’s acquisition falls apart

https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/14/cognition-maker-of-the-ai-coding-agent-devin-acquires-windsurf/

Carta:

https://carta.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:52) Breaking News: The Windsurf Situation

(01:12) The OpenAI-Microsoft IP Rights Drama

(03:01) Plot Twist: Cognition's Counter-Offer

(04:49) The Employee Equity Problem

(06:00) Defending Against "That's How Deals Work" Critics

(08:00) The Scarlet Letter Effect

(10:00) Regulatory Background: The Lina Khan Era

(12:00) Revealed Behavior: What This Shows About Values

(13:25) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:00) Talent vs. Product Separation

(19:53) The AI Era's R&D Researcher Obsession

(22:00) Unequal Distribution of Outcomes

(23:28) What Comes Next: Evaluating Startup Risk

(24:00) The Founder Psychology Bet

(25:00) Equity Structure Solutions

(28:58) Becoming AI Native: Personal Brand Strategy

(30:56) The New Reality: Expecting Less Care

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana-a1906212/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:21) The Frustration: Why "HR at the Table" Still Doesn't Work

(02:13) Jeff's Do's and Don'ts Framework for Business Leadership

(04:26) KD's C-Suite Litmus Test

(05:50) The Controversial Take: Understanding Founder Irrationality

(06:49) Jeff's "Layers of the Cake" Business Metrics

(08:35) Sponsors: Planful | MetaView

(11:35) Synthesizing Learning for Your Team

(12:14) Being the Best-Run Function Strategy

(13:43) Career Mobility Benefits

(14:10) The SuccessFactors Sales Kickoff Story

(15:33) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Related Links:

Ryan Breslow’s LinkedIn Post:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ryanbreslow_bolt-has-eliminated-its-hr-department-activity-7340377688517365761-0TcL/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Bolt's HR "Elimination" Announcement

(01:11) You Gotta Understand the Source First

(02:43) Way to Say Something Without Really Saying Anything

(03:24) Discussion: Good HR vs. Bad HR and Over-Planning

(04:37) Why HR Gets Targeted: Speed and Headcount Issues

(05:36) Who is People Ops Really?

(06:21) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(09:21) Who is People Ops Really? (continued)

(10:07) Business Risk and Future of HR Functions

(11:01) The Shift Has Already Been Happening

(11:58) The Work Doesn't Go Away

(12:22) Future of Work: AI Coaching and Managing Agents

(13:21) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:32) The Problem (HR Leaders Don't Understand Equity)

(02:05) The Four Essential Questions Checklist

(02:14) Question #1 (What's the Fully Diluted Share Count?)

(03:53) Question #2 (What's the Strike Price/409A Valuation?)

(05:03) Question #3 (What's the Last Preferred Price?)

(07:51) The Golden Handcuffs Reality Check

(09:38) Question #4 (What's Your Exercise Window?)

(10:51) The Negotiation Secrets They Don't Tell You

(12:08) Why Strike Price Appreciation Kills You

(13:55) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:44) Advanced Negotiation Tactics

(21:51) Don't Take Equity at Face Value

(22:47) Your Responsibility To Do the Research

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Colleen’s Medium article on Founder CEO & Head of HR Divorce Rates:

https://medium.com/@colleenwheelermccreary/founder-ceo-head-of-hr-divorce-rates-c233c7fda7dc

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:28) The CEO-VP of HR Divorce Rate Post Origin Story

(03:34) Learning from LJ Brock & Brian Armstrong's Relationship

(04:13) What Interview Processes Miss: The Hard Stuff

(06:13) Colleen's Trigger: Counter-Offers as Extortion

(07:39) Why HR Leaders Need to Figure Things Out

(08:51) Asking About Traumas in the Interview Process

(09:32) Expecting Turbulence vs. Throwing in the Towel

(10:14) Sponsors: Planful and Metaview

(13:14) The Festering Problem: Avoiding vs. Addressing Issues

(16:05) Molehills vs. Mountains: Managing Founder Relationships

(18:06) Being a Filter, Not a Burden

(18:43) The LinkedIn Marriage Analogy

(20:35) Agency & Experience: First-Time Leaders vs. Veterans

(21:39) Earning the Right & Paying Your Dues

(23:52) Staying Misaligned: A Conscious Choice

(25:19) Amicable Divorces & Doing It Right

(26:10) Taking the High Road: Long-term Relationship Impact

(27:10) 30-Year Relationships Still Matter

(28:05) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH BRANDON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Brandon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-sammut-8147b76

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED LINKS:

Zapier: https://zapier.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:30) The Four-Level AI Fluency Rubric

(07:00) Pure Automation Examples (Non-AI)

(13:10) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:00) Bar Raiser Interview Prep Agent Setup

(20:20) Live Agent Trigger Demonstration

(21:10) Bar Raiser Interview Results & Discussion

(26:15) Performance Review Evidence Collection Setup

(34:10) Slack Emoji Workflow Demonstration

(35:30) Market-Based Adoption Philosophy

(36:00) One-on-One Meeting Coach Overview

(43:30) One-on-One Coaching Feedback Example

(44:00) Trust, Transparency & Implementation Strategy

(48:20) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED LINKS:

Behind the Curtain: Top AI CEO foresees white-collar bloodbath: https://www.axios.com/2025/05/28/ai-jobs-white-collar-unemployment-anthropic

Josh Bersin: No, Entry Level Jobs Are Not Going Away:

https://joshbersin.com/2025/05/no-entry-level-jobs-are-not-going-away/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:34) The White-Collar Bloodbath vs. Optimistic Takes

(01:53) Reality Check: Where's the Actual AI Implementation?

(02:35) The Puck Has Moved: Redefining Entry-Level

(03:31) Headcount Reality: Flat or Down Since 2022

(05:30) Coinbase: The Only Company Actually Doing It

(05:58) Sponsors: Planful & Metaview

(09:00) Human Inertia: The Real Barrier to AI Adoption

(10:47) The Custom GPT Success Story

(13:34) Top-Down Mandates Break Through Inertia

(14:00) Stop Building Programs, Start Experimenting

(16:49) The Biggest Alpha Opportunity Ever

(17:23) Wrap

For today’s episode, we're revisiting an early conversation about how to fire C-suite executives that we had with CJ Gustafson from the Run the Numbers podcast. If you're in this business long enough, you're either going to have to fire an executive, or you're going to be the one getting fired. That's just reality. What started as a simple question turned into one of our most candid discussions about severance packages, golden parachutes, and layering.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CJ, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

CJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:52) The First Steps: When to Exit a C-Suite Executive

(02:46) Decision vs. Discussion: Framing the Conversation

(05:29) The Fourth Scenario: Growth Outpacing Talent

(08:04) Compensation: The Spicy Details

(10:36) Pre-Negotiated Severance: Red Flag or Smart Move?

(14:50) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:49) Golden Parachutes: The Biggest Payouts

(20:47) Equity Acceleration and Exercise Windows

(22:35) Rest and Vest: The Perverse Incentive Problem

(24:12) Garden Leave Explained

(24:51) VCs and CEO Firings: The Reputation Game

(27:00) Advice for the Departing Executive

(30:13) Controlling the Narrative

(31:43) Wrap

Want more AI demos? Subscribe to The 10x Recruiting podcast from Metaview on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify for more interviews like this one.

—

LINKS:

Samy’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samyaumar/

Qonto: https://qonto.com/en

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction & Series Launch

(00:34) The AI Sophistication Gap

(01:34) Key Takeaways Preview

(02:03) No Engineers Needed

(03:00) B-Minus Outputs Beat Blank Pages

(04:19) Episode Introduction

(05:17) From Experimentation to Central Workflow

(06:00) Use Case 1: AI-Quality Interview Transcripts

(07:00) Introduction to Dust AI Agents

(07:43) Job Ad Agent Demonstration

(09:00) Building Agents Without Coding

(11:33) Uploading Intake Notes

(13:15) Time Savings: 3 Days to 24 Hours

(14:00) Backend Configuration

(17:17) Use Case 2: Market Intelligence Agent

(19:08) Specialized vs General AI Research

(21:22) Research Results & Accuracy

(23:42) Managing AI Expectations

(26:00) Parallel Processing & Multitasking

(28:22) Qonto’s AI Mandate

(29:27) Champion-Based Implementation

(30:33) Hiring for AI Curiosity

(31:38) Product Roadmap Inspiration

(33:01) Future Vision: Meta Platforms

(33:23) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

📝 Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

📋 Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH DANIELLE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Danielle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathisdanielle/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Clari: http://www.clari.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:58) The Fraud Discovery

(02:38) The Scale Emerges

(03:55) Victim Impact Assessment

(07:24) Silver Lining - Hiring from the Chaos

(08:31) The Criminal Motive Revealed

(09:54) FBI Investigation Process

(11:13) Law Enforcement Response

(11:54) Second Wave - Text Message Scams

(13:22) Industry-Wide Problem Recognition

(14:14) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:18) Mitigation Strategies Implemented

(20:18) Enter the Deepfake Candidates

(21:27) Firsthand Deepfake Experience

(22:36) New Defense Protocols

(24:12) The Inbound Application Dilemma

(26:26) Adding Friction to Combat Fraud

(28:27) Future-Proofing Against AI Threats

(29:03) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

📝 Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

📋 Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NEIL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Neil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-frye-he-him-54755319/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Dotmatics:

http://www.dotmatics.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) Neil's Executive Search Journey

(02:46) The Candidate Perspective: Why Neil Withdraws from Searches

(04:18) Using AI to Level Up Interview Confidence

(05:18) The Danger of Always Having Answers

(06:30) Executive Search as Matchmaking

(08:25) Defining Non-Negotiables Before You Start

(10:50) Don't Mistake Polish for Fit

(13:25) Pushing Back on Development Stories

(13:35) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:00) Building Executive Search from the CPO Side

(18:56) Internal vs External Search: The 90% Rule

(20:38) The Network Test for External Firms

(22:00) Conscious Leadership Framework

(25:25) Style Compatibility in Executive Hiring

(29:32) The Tactile Learning CEO Pattern

(33:18) Candidate Due Diligence Strategies

(34:21) Requesting More Interview Panel Members

(36:12) Real-World Work Examples

(37:14) Time and Relationships Trump Speed

(39:26) Building Budgets Before Accepting Offers

(40:48) Final Advice: Stop Waiting to Be Picked

(41:22) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

📝 Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

📋 Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH BAZ, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Baz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cynthia-bazlamit-shrauner-683767/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Electric Capital:

https://www.electriccapital.com/

Link to Baz’s LinkedIn post about getting demoted in Facebook:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/cynthia-bazlamit-shrauner-683767_7-years-into-my-time-at-facebook-i-was-demoted-activity-7321208807441731587-8SYh?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLw

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:59) The Demotion Story Begins

(04:00) The Emotional Reality

(06:00) Finding the Right Replacement

(07:59) Learning What You Love vs. Loathe

(10:58) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:58) Demoting Yourself Again: The Christine Ellis Story

(19:03) What Makes Great Leaders

(22:21) The Reality Check: Not Everyone Can Do This

(27:59) Self-Awareness and Ego Management

(35:24) Meta's COVID Hiring Spree

(42:08) The Layoffs: What Really Happened

(51:37) DEI Programs: From Helpful to Distracting

(57:41) Wrap

NOTE: Kelli is away this week spending time with family

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Link to Glen’s LinkedIn Post:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/glenevans_startups-leadership-workculture-activity-7328919826930814976-pEy7?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLw

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:31) 996 Culture Invades Silicon Valley

(01:23) Greylock's Brutal Take

(04:06) Does More Hours Equal More Productivity?

(05:35) No Substitute For Time

(07:18) My DoorDash Grind Days

(08:30) Why I Can't Do It Anymore

(10:06) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:06) The 24-Year-Old Founders Story

(14:15) "Don't Hire Me, I'm Too Old"

(15:30) I Actually Miss Those Days

(16:33) Life Is Trade-offs

(16:55) The In-Person Only Founder

(18:47) Humans Need Pain To Grow

(19:12) Rule Breakers Build The Future

(19:30) Appreciate Founder Honesty

(19:53) Wrap

Fidelma emphasizes that L&D needs to be agile, continuously evolving, and solve actual business problems rather than existing as a separate "nice-to-have" function.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH Fidelma, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Fidelma: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidelmabutler/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Couchbase:

https://www.couchbase.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39) The L&D Challenge at Scale

(01:19) Tailoring L&D to Your Organization

(03:00) Defining Good Leadership

(06:00) Creating Leadership Language and Framework

(08:00) Why L&D Struggles - Making Squishy Things Tangible

(10:00) Meeting People Where They Are

(12:00) Optimizing L&D for Top Performers

(16:32) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(19:30) Engagement Surveys Done Right

(25:00) When Surveys Conflict with Leadership Vision

(28:00) Leaders Teaching Leaders

(31:30) Coaching Strategy and Deployment

(35:30) The Future of L&D Roles

(39:30) Getting Career Development Wrong

(42:30) The Promotion Obsession Problem

(46:00) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SALLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Sally: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallythornton/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Forshay: https://forshay.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:58) What Forge Does

(02:33) Trust Barriers in Fractional Work

(03:25) The Relational Approach

(04:36) Buyer Mindset Challenges

(06:10) Marketplaces vs. Agents

(10:00) The Adverse Selection Problem

(10:56) The Dirty Secret of Fractional

(11:45) Different Interview Approach

(13:03) Consulting Background Advantage

(13:53) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:57) The Ideal Buyer

(17:26) Early vs. Late Stage Company Challenges

(18:24) CFOs Make Better Clients

(18:59) Transparent Pricing Model

(21:41) Hourly Rate Guidelines

(22:41) W2 vs. 1099 Considerations

(23:27) The Honeymoon Phase

(24:52) Managing Client Expectations

(26:46) Beyond Filling Open Roles

(29:08) The Assessment Process

(34:29) Evolution from Interim to Fractional

(37:05) Advice for New Fractional Execs

(38:15) The Black Hole Complaint

(40:11) Career Self-Management

(42:11) Sustaining a 15-Year Business

(43:06) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK TO NOLAN’S POST:

Community Regulation When People Break Social Etiquette

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:16) When LinkedIn Goes Nuclear: The Time Management Debate

(02:05) How Your Day Affects Your Tolerance

(04:14) Different Cultures, Different Rules: Looker vs Google Time Ethics

(07:48) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:48) The Mother Test: When Accountability Matters Most

(11:21) Calendar Hijacking: When Professional Boundaries Get Crossed

(13:08) Societal Rot or Personal Standards? The Unwritten Rules Debate

(15:34) Finding Your Boundary Line

(16:14) What's Your Unwritten Rule?

(16:22) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH JARED, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jared: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredkleinert

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Offsite: https://marketplace.offsite.com/inquiry?utm=hrheretics

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:47) Offsite's Business Model and Vision

(02:17) Remote Work Trends and Offsite Planning

(04:49) Elements of a Successful Offsite

(09:38) Measuring Offsite ROI and Effectiveness

(14:00) Adapting Offsites During Economic Downturns

(16:26) Sponsors Planful | Metaview

(19:52) Strategic Offsite Planning and Best Practices

(26:46) Balancing Team Building and Business Performance

(30:34) Executive Offsite Tactics and Trust Building

(34:04) Pre-Offsite Preparation and Intention Setting

(37:15) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:52) Being Smart about Equity

(01:46) Nolan's $8 Million Mistake

(03:05) Understanding Share Count

(04:44) Strike Price Explained

(06:00) Preferred Price vs. Strike Price

(07:43) Net Value Calculation

(08:42) Golden Handcuffs Reality

(10:31) Exercise Windows

(12:00) Negotiation Opportunities

(12:26) Tax Implications

(14:07) Early Exercise Benefits

(15:09) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(18:09) Additional Negotiation Tactics

(19:57) Executive Liquidity Options

(21:32) Double Trigger Provisions

(23:12) Vesting Schedule Negotiation

(24:00) Key Takeaways

(24:37) Personal Responsibility

(26:08) Resources & Research

(27:01) Final Thoughts

(27:23) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card.

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:33) The CEO AI Mandate Trend

(01:22) Siadhal's Take on AI Mandates

(02:35) AI Orchestration as a Career Necessity

(03:00) Headcount Management in the AI Era

(04:04) AI Leverage vs. Team Size

(06:03) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful

(08:13) AI Upskilling and Education

(09:21) Personal AI Tuition in Organizations

(10:18) The Reflexive AI Problem-Solving Approach

(11:27) Show and Tell: Learning from Power Users

(12:00) Knowing What's Possible as Motivation

(13:22) Carrot vs. Stick: Recognizing AI Adoption

(14:38) Beyond AI as a Metric: Performance is the Goal

(15:34) Wrap

(15:58) Sponsor: Metaview

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:36) Dear Heretics - 360 Reviews Question

(00:52) Good vs Bad 360 Reviews

(06:34) Sponsors - Planful | Metaview

(09:34) Using AI for 360 Reviews

(11:38) On Using AI Tools

(13:27) Sports Analogy Break

(14:45) Getting the Ball Rolling

(15:22) Continuous Feedback Approach

(17:21) 5:1 Positive Ratio

(17:59) Explaining the Why in Feedback

(19:20) Making Feedback Enjoyable

(19:26) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH TROY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Troy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/troysultan/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS

Guide: https://www.guide.co/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:10) Troy's Exit from Google

(01:44) The Cookie-Based Sales Strategy

(02:54) Resource vs. Gem

(03:33) Product vs. Go-to-Market Lessons

(05:23) Selling to Gem

(07:31) The Acquisition Strategy

(09:25) Working with Brokers

(11:46) Marketing to HR Leaders

(14:05) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(17:05) The Value of Candidate Experience

(19:42) Company Priorities vs. Actions

(22:20) Guide: AI-Powered Recruiting Coordination

(24:35) AI Adoption Challenges

(26:18) Authors vs. Editors Framework

(27:44) How Aria Works

(30:18) World-Class Candidate Experience

(31:31) The Self-Service Revolution

(34:03) Customer Industries and Use Cases

(37:20) Human Experience Across Job Types

(40:03) The Cultural Shift to Self-Service

(42:47) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:10) The Role of CPO in 2025

(02:20) Corporate Deep Fake Fraud Story

(03:30) How the Deep Fake Was Discovered

(04:00) FBI Involvement & Next Wave of Fraud

(05:10) Pelion VC Domain Fraud Case

(05:50) Value of Raw Conversations at Retreat

(06:10) No One-Size-Fits-All CPO Role

(07:00) Executive Alignment Importance

(08:30) Sussing Out Cultural Fit

(10:10) Moral Boundaries vs. Running Experiments

(12:00) Learning from Radical Ideas at Carta

(12:30) "Care a Little Less" Philosophy

(14:14) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:14) Avoiding People Leader Burnout

(19:20) Building Your Peer Network

(21:10) Tactical Work vs. Strategic Leadership

(22:20) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH ANNIE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Annie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annie-wickman-3332731/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Character.AI: https://character.ai/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:17) Experience as First Non-Founder at Humu

(03:16) Early Employee Challenges & Responsibilities

(05:03) Why Annie Stayed at Humu for Four Years

(06:30) Product Market Fit vs. Company Culture

(09:05) When to Invest in Culture

(11:15) Hiring the Right Leaders for Company Stage

(11:40) Maintaining Morale When Company Isn't Winning

(12:42) Transparency as Trust Builder

(13:47) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:47) Rebuilding Trust Through Honest Communication

(19:11) Laszlo's Leadership Philosophy: Stretching People

(21:02) Annie's Experience in Venture Capital at Forerunner

(23:12) Teaching Founders to Fish vs. Providing Services

(24:51) How to Evaluate VC Opportunities

(26:09) Understanding VC Economics and Carry Structure

(30:10) Character AI's Unprecedented Google Deal

(32:56) Rebuilding Post-Acquisition: Product Vision Challenges

(34:13) Annie's Perspective on the Deal Timeline

(37:31) Post-Deal Reset: Napa Offsite and Hackathon

(39:29) Employee Ownership After Acquisition

(41:29) Building a New Culture While Keeping the Brand

(42:11) Wrap

They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues supporting them.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:52) Listener's Moral Dilemma with CEO

(02:46) The Gamble With Me Philosophy

(03:07) All In or All Out Leadership

(04:09) Separating Morality from Alignment

(04:38) The Danger of Staying When Misaligned

(06:25) Toxic Without Knowing It

(08:06) Modern Approach to Leadership Exits

(08:53) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(11:48) Is This Normal Startup Life?

(12:07) Understanding Startup Rule-Bending

(14:00) The Entrepreneurial Mindset

(15:12) The Popsicle Stand Example

(16:46) Building Your Leadership Brand

(17:27) Working With vs Around Founders

(18:19) The Lemonade Stand Rule

(19:36) Wrap

Fresh from raising a $245 million fund, Queener explores how AI is fundamentally changing software companies, emphasizing the need for rapid iteration and questioning traditional playbooks. He shares thoughtful perspectives on evaluating AI startups beyond the hype, the changing nature of talent requirements, and why successful companies must embrace a "change economy" mentality to thrive.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH BRETT, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Brett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettqueener/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Bonfire Ventures: https://www.bonfirevc.com/

—

OTHER RECOMMENDED LINKS:

The Change Economy:

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:07) Bonfire's $245M New Fund

(03:24) Today's Frothy AI Market

(06:30) The 11X AI SDR Case Study

(08:18) AI's Revolutionary Impact on Products

(11:12) First-Time vs. Repeat Founders in AI

(14:39) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:38) Rethinking How Companies Operate

(19:43) Hiring in the AI Era

(22:58) Teams Getting Younger and AI Native

(25:04) The Future of Junior Roles

(28:22) The 11X Controversy Explained

(30:29) Evaluating What's Real in AI Companies

(33:29) Vibey Revenue and Real Value

(37:00) Product Viability and Renewals

(39:42) Assessing Founders and Products

(42:10) The Case for In-Office Collaboration

(44:31) The "Holy S**t" Product Moment

(46:09) Wrap

The conversation highlights the paradox of developing powerful AI systems without understanding their workings, raising implications for deployment, safety, and the "intelligence on tap" paradigm reshaping our technological relationship. We should all be paying attention.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Anthropic’s featured paper: https://www.anthropic.com/news/tracing-thoughts-language-model

Metaview: https://www.metaview.ai/

—

OTHER RECOMMENDED LINKS:

Mercor: https://mercor.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS

(00:13) Intro

(00:45) Anthropic's Mind-Blowing Paper

(01:37) LLMs Think Across Languages

(02:04) Faked Reasoning in AI Models

(02:28) AI Hallucinations Explained

(03:00) First Paragraph Reveals Uncertainty

(05:18) Beyond Next Token Prediction

(07:23) Evaluating LLMs Without Understanding

(08:44) More Human Than Software

(10:05) Why You Should Experiment With AI

(11:13) The Airplane Analogy

(12:26) Safety Concerns for Future AI

(12:54) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:27) Dario Amodei on AI Self-Policing

(18:05) OpenAI's $300B Valuation

(19:33) Intelligence on Tap

(22:02) Retraining Google Habits

(24:35) Agentic AI & Reinforcement Learning

(27:15) Human Training for AI Models

(30:25) Wrap

Today's guest is Arthur Matuszewski, who shares insights from his diverse career at Bridgewater, Better.com, and his firm Carrara. He emphasizes intellectual honesty, focusing on work outputs rather than titles, and avoiding false negatives in hiring. Nolan says he's one of the most insightful guests ever.

Matuszewski advocates for evaluating talent based on actual value creation rather than pedigree, and stresses the importance of adapting recruitment strategies to each org's unique context rather than relying on standardized playbooks.

Head to The 10x Recruiting Podcast on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify for more interviews like this one.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@10x_Recruiting_pod

Apple:

Spotify:

—

LINKS:

Arthur’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthurmatuszewski/

Carrara: https://www.carrara.is/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:53) Episode preview

(05:51) Arthur's career journey overview

(07:53) Lessons learned at Bridgewater

(10:41) Recruiting for teams vs individuals

(12:35) Bridgewater's culture of experimentation

(16:47) High attrition rate and false negatives

(23:22) Better.com's rise and viral moment

(28:02) Defining intellectual honesty

(30:08) Carrara and focusing on the work

(37:56) Balancing productivity with thinking time

(40:03) Avoiding sunk costs in talent decisions

(43:31) Carrara's process for delivering winners

(45:43) Showing founders what the market is saying

(47:19) Internal vs external talent perspectives

(51:58) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card.

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH LUCY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Lucy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucykadams/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Disruptive HR: https://disruptivehr.com/

Lucy’s article “HR Business Partner: The toughest role in HR?”: https://disruptivehr.com/hr-business-partner-the-toughest-role-in-hr/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:17) Lucy's Background and BBC Experience

(03:08) Personal Connection and BBC Stories

(04:25) Origins of Disruptive HR

(07:00) Evolution of HR and Post-COVID Workplace Changes

(11:39) Trust and Autonomy in Workplace Decisions

(16:56) Trust as Foundation for Business Success

(17:32) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful

(20:27) Progressive HR Policies and Examples

(23:53) HR Business Partner Role Challenges

(25:13) Sponsor: Metaview

(27:55) Messy Reality of Great HR Work

(31:00) HR's Focus on Process vs. Real Impact

(33:26) Current HR Trends and Community Concerns

(35:56) DEI Evolution and Conversation Approaches

(45:53) Wrap

They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues supporting them.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card.

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:24) Impact of Crisis on Professional Life

(03:19) Becoming a Parent to Your Parent

(03:41) The Adrenaline Phase vs. Reality Setting In

(04:18) Nolan's Story of His Father-in-Law

(05:47) How Crisis Changes Your Perspective

(07:11) The Impossibility of Compartmentalizing Life

(08:02) The Importance of Strong Work Relationships

(09:21) The Speed of Life-Changing Events

(10:01) Gaining Wisdom Through Difficulty

(10:18) The Value of Having a Coach

(12:22) Using Your Support System Effectively

(13:19) Finding a New Balance in Crisis

(14:10) Practical Ways to Help Someone in Crisis

(14:49) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful

(17:00) Navigating the Healthcare System

(18:03) The Critical Need for Medical Advocacy

(19:35) How Crisis Impacts Your Work Priorities

(20:17) Asking the Right Questions When Supporting Others

(21:04) Sponsor: Metaview

They describe Rippling's elaborate "honeypot" trap to catch Deel's corporate spy and how this incident exemplifies the evolution of business conflicts from private disputes to public social media spectacles, highlighting workplace transparency's growing complexity.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Deel and Rippling Drama

(05:00) Rippling's Allegation: Spy in Dublin Office

(06:19) The 'Honeypot' Trap Explanation

(07:48) "That's Not a Honeypot, That's a Mousetrap"

(09:00) Corporate Espionage More Common Than People Think

(12:00) Going Public on Twitter as the "Master Stroke"

(14:00) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:16) New Era of CEOs Going to War

(17:15) The Next Phase: Everything Is Public Now

(19:24) The Spy Locks Himself in the Bathroom

(22:04) Sunlight Is the Best Disinfectant

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH DAVID, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Solarwinds: https://www.solarwinds.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction(00:37) David's Take on Transform(03:33) The Grittiness of HR(05:42) Value of In-Person Relationships(08:50) Transform's Community Session(10:36) Blackjack, Craps, and the Games(11:28) David's New Role at SolarWinds(15:35) Sponsor: Metaview(17:29) G Suite vs Microsoft Outlook(18:00) Juggling New Job Responsibilities(20:35) Katie Burke's Self Reflection(22:18) Painful Changes and Lessons from Multiple CHRO Roles(25:03) The Weird Moment for L & D(28:55) Effective Leadership Development(33:41) David's BHAG: Leadership Development(35:29) Wrap

They explore calibration's dual purpose: ensuring consistent evaluation standards and developing forward-looking talent plans. Above all, calibration needs to be an iterative process requiring transparency and company-wide understanding to avoid becoming toxic or misunderstood.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:56) The Fine Line of HR Facilitation

(01:46) Setting Process Rules Before Calibration

(03:35) HR Should Opine with Objectivity

(05:47) The New York Times Test

(06:26) Sponsor: Metaview

(08:20) Purpose of Calibration Sessions

(09:37) Importance of Forward-Looking Discussions

(10:35) Calibration Process Flow

(12:16) Transparency Across the Company

(13:10) Building the Calibration Muscle

(14:27) Real-World Implementation

(15:30) Wrap

The conversation explores how compliance training evolved from her military experiences, covers the role of Chief People Officers, and reveals how military discipline shaped her approach to building high-performance tech cultures without superficial perks.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH ROXANNE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Roxanne: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roxanne-bras-petraeus-2292b8109/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RECOMMENDATIONS:

Ethena: https://www.goethena.com/

‘We’re not recording’ podcast with Roxanne Petraeus:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTcvuUiuTe9nFXLMIPy4gjHv67-bFl8Do

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:36) How Roxanne ended up in the Army

(03:29) Career path from Army to McKinsey to founder

(04:29) The insight behind Ethena's founding

(07:11) Problems with traditional LMS approaches

(10:04) Debate on employee vs company-driven learning

(14:00) Making training relevant to day-to-day work

(15:43) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:38) The best L&D: great managers and top performers

(20:47) Learning from people vs structured courses

(22:40) Hiring a CPO at an HR tech company

(24:45) Building a culture of intellectual meritocracy

(27:27) Founders set company culture, not HR

(28:44) The expanding role of modern CPOs

(33:08) Functional leaders' accountability vs HR

(35:19) CPO as strategic partner and executive coach

(37:55) Maintaining high talent density and expectations

(41:33) Leading a female-led company with high standards

(43:16) Thanksgiving with David Petraeus

(43:54) Wrap

Colleen, Kelli, and Nolan discuss transparent leadership, building community in remote environments, and bringing humanity to workplace policies—all while balancing the challenges of joining an established company as an executive with a public reputation

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(2:28) Remote Work Authenticity Challenges During the Pandemic

(5:19) How the CPO Role Has Changed in Today's Market

(10:14) Joining a Public Company as CPO with a Public Persona

(14:29) Sponsor: Metaview

(19:51) Creating a "Remove the B******t" Company OKR

(25:41) Building Community in Remote-First Organizations

(28:25) Bringing Humanity to Crisis Response in HR

(30:17) Tackling Compensation Transparency as a New CPO

(31:02) Continuous Improvement Over Perfection in Leadership

(37:25) Balancing Multiple CPO Responsibilities While Driving Change

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Struggling to Find a New Role

(01:02) Principle #1: Avoid Applying to Jobs

(01:46) The "Rolling Process" Approach

(02:34) Current Job Market Reality Check

(03:28) Value Proposition Design

(03:50) Targeted Application Strategy

(04:13) Cold Outreach Framework

(05:06) Why Cold Outreach Works

(06:15) Two Categories of Job Hunting

(06:41) Maximizing Your Current Role

(07:45) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:39) External Network Building

(10:41) When You Need a Job Urgently

(11:28) Research-Based Approach

(12:13) LinkedIn Networking Strategy

(12:52) The Best Time to Look for a Job

(13:39) Quantifying Business Value

(14:30) Cold Outreach Framework

(16:00) Referrals and Resource Lists

(16:42) The Importance of Preparation

(17:11) Current Job Market Assessment

(18:07) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

REFERENCE:

Nolan’s post on LinkedIn regarding Jamie Dimon: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nolan-church_ceos-are-done-with-remote-work-this-is-activity-7296192450493120514-xCMH/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:50) Thoughts on the leaked JP Morgan CEO video on remote work(02:08) On remote work flexibility(02:25) Red Pill Moment?(03:35) Was JP Morgan recording was intentional?(05:34) Talent expectations and companies returning to the office(06:51) Sponsor: Metaview(08:45) Human adaptation to remote work(09:58) The importance of leadership in work engagement(11:07) Missionary versus mercenary motivation(12:45) Thoughts on leadership and market conditions(12:51) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:55) What is Agentic AI?

(02:05) AI Decision-Making Autonomy

(03:16) Examples of Traditional AI Workflows

(04:20) Behind the AI "Magic"

(05:06) Experience with ChatGPT Operator

(07:13) Context and Expertise Gap

(10:35) Early Innings of AI Development

(11:39) Improving AI Interactions

(13:19) Garbage In, Garbage Out

(13:27) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:44) The Shift to Agentic AI

(18:23) AI Thinking and Collaboration

(19:25) Human-Machine Adaptation

(20:27) Machines Becoming More Human-Like

(22:23) Daily AI Stack

(25:08) Wrap

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH ANNA, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:13) The Core Issue: Lack of Feedback After Extensive Interviews(01:00) The Reality of Lean Teams and Bandwidth Constraints(02:15) The Liability Concern: Company Policy Against Sharing Feedback(03:00) A Shift in Perspective: Treating Candidates With Respect(04:06) The Importance of Feedback After On-Site Interviews(04:20) Setting Candidate Expectations: Establishing a "Contract"(05:49) Clarity of Identity: Defining Company Approach to Feedback(06:55) The Long-Term Impact of Thoughtful Candidate Experience(07:13) A Practical Approach: Phone Calls for On-Site Candidates(08:47) Sponsor: Metaview(10:41) Importance of Live Feedback(11:01) Worst-Case Scenarios and the Skill of Giving Feedback(12:41) Recruiters as People People - Navigating Difficult Conversations(13:29) The Need for Recruiters to Develop Hard Conversation Skills(14:00) HR BP skills on the recruiting team(14:44) The Candidate's Perspective: Managing Expectations(15:32) How to Ask for Feedback(16:28) Expanding Your Network and Paying it Forward(18:11) Don't Underestimate How Small the World Is(18:34) Wrap

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

**For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

LINK/S:

Airbnb: https://www.airbnb.com/

—

REFERENCE/S:

NVIDIA’s Jensen Huang says that IT will ‘become the HR of AI agents’:

https://fortune.com/2025/01/09/nvidia-ceo-jensen-huangt-take-over-hr-ai-agents/

—

KEEP UP WITH IAIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Iain: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertsiain/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) From Designer to HR Leader: Iain's Journey

(01:15) "Everything Needs to Be Designed" Philosophy

(03:09) Designing Systems of People and Structures

(04:47) Bringing Design Thinking to HR at Airbnb

(08:03) Airbnb's One Roadmap Approach: 7,000 People, One Focus

(07:21) Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up Culture & Innovation

(10:26) Tactically Transforming an HR Team with Design Thinking

(11:47) Treating HR as Products and Services

(13:14) The Future of HR Product Management

(14:36) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:30) Founder Mode: Misinterpretations and Brian Chesky's Approach

(23:00) Airbnb's Shift to a Single Product Roadmap

(26:54) Design-Led Culture and Attention to Detail at Airbnb

(28:48) Prototyping & Iterating with Human Experiences: Challenges

(30:50) Airbnb's Gathering Strategy and Flexible Work Philosophy

(33:48) Airbnb's Contrarian Stance on Remote Work (Live & Work Anywhere)

(39:45) Wrap

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

LINK/S:

Asana: https://asana.com/

—

KEEP UP WITH ANNA, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Anna: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annabinder/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:47) Becoming a Board Member at Culture Amp(05:33) The Importance of Taking Calls and Building Relationships(07:10) How to Prepare for and Participate Effectively on a Board(11:48) Examples of "Operating" vs. Asking the Right Questions as a Board Member(14:57) Sponsor: Metaview(16:57) Anna's Experience Building MuleSoft(19:00) Navigating Disagreements and Being "Invited to Exit"(21:12) Sharing the News and the Importance of Transparency(22:50) Finding the Right Fit and the Role of Values(25:57) Joining Asana(26:26) Ensuring Alignment During the Interview Process(29:35) How to Maintain Stamina and Interest Over a Long Tenure(31:14) Examples of Attention to Detail and Values Alignment at Asana(31:46) Examining the CEO's Calendar During Interviews(33:05) Anna's Controversial Recruiting Philosophy(33:16) Recruiting Top Talent(35:42) DEI at Asana: Long-Term Vision and Business Outcomes(39:38) The Importance of Being in the Right Room(40:09) Playing the Long Game on DEI(41:59) Encouraging People to Enter the Field(44:31) Outro

Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introdu(00:13) Defining the Top 1%(00:57) Shifting Trends in Job Offers and Compensation(02:04) Appreciating Top Talent(03:01) The Importance of Appreciation Beyond Monetary Compensation(03:56) Balancing Appreciation and Competitive Compensation(05:02) Transparency in Compensation Decisions(07:49) Sponsor: Metaview(09:43) Four Pillars: Appreciation, Thoughtfulness, Proactivity, and Transparency(12:08) The Expectation of Transparency(12:43) Long-Term Career Involvement with Top Performers(14:21) Reciprocity in Employer-Employee Relationships(14:53) Wrap

Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THIS PODCAST:

Gizmodo Article: “Anthropic Wants You to Use AI—Just Not to Apply for Its Jobs”

https://gizmodo.com/anthropic-wants-you-to-use-ai-just-not-to-apply-for-its-jobs-2000558490

Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/

Final Round AI: https://www.finalroundai.com/

Sora: https://openai.com/sora/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:26) Initial Reactions and Perspectives to Anthropic’s Policy(02:23) AI as a Tool vs. Replacement for Human Skills(03:36) AI-Powered Interview Cheating.(04:11) Practical AI Usage Throughout the Application Process(06:21) Sponsor: Metaview(08:15) Authenticity vs. AI Assistance(10:09) Polarities and Gradients of AI Usage(11:16) The Problem of Cheating and the "Open Book" Interview Approach(12:30) Using AI During In-Person Interviews(13:33) Adapting to AI in Hiring and Education(14:18) Audience Engagement and Future Solutions(15:03) Wrap

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

LINK/S:

Employer.com: https://www.employer.com/

—

KEEP UP WITH JESSE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jesse: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessetinsley

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:55) Update on the TikTok Acquisition(02:25) Motivation Behind Acquiring TikTok with Mr. Beast(04:38) How TikTok Fits into Jesse's Business Portfolio(07:07) Discussion on Executive Compensation and Layoffs(10:28) Specifics on Executive Salary Cuts(11:00) Sponsor: Metaview(12:57) Executive Compensation(15:34) The Importance of Leadership Accountability(18:16) Cultural Impact of Executive Pay Cuts(19:12) Wrap(21:05) Outro

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

LINKS:

Growth By Talent: https://www.gbdtalent.com/

—

KEEP UP WITH ADAM, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Adam: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adampward/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

REFERENCE:

“Give and Take” by Adam Grant:

https://adamgrant.net/book/give-and-take/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:57) The "Pocket Listing" Phenomenon in Executive Hiring

(02:22) Unpacking the Reasons Behind Covert Hiring Practices

(03:59) Practical Strategies for Candidates to Expand Their Networks and Access Hidden Opportunities

(05:03) Cultivating a Personal "Board of Advisors" for Career Guidance and Opportunity Awareness

(08:41) The Importance of "Give and Take" in Networking and Building Mutually Beneficial Relationships

(09:43) Defining the Qualities of a Successful Head of People/Talent: The CEO's Perspective

(11:10) A "Business-Driven" Approach to HR Leadership

(13:04) Moving Beyond Quantity to Focus on Quality

(16:04) Sponsor: Metaview

(18:07) Identifying Must-Have Skills and Experiences for a Head of People Role

(19:14) The "CEO Whisperer" Role: Balancing Support and Independent Counsel

(21:57) Identifying Traits That May Hinder a People Leader's Job Search Success

(23:08) Addressing Polarities and Calibrating Expectations Within Hiring Teams

(26:48) The Resurgence of Candidate Experience as a Differentiator in a Competitive Market

(28:53) Why Top Talent Approaches Job Opportunities with Caution

(31:24) Defining the Scope and Focus of the Head of Talent Role in Today's Environment

(36:04) How Candidates Should Effectively Interact with Executive Search Firms

(41:52) Values Alignment: How To Find a Successful Values Match For Company Culture

(42:05) What Causes Executive Placements to Fail?

(44:55) Wrap

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:13) Discussion on Company Values(01:30) Importance of Leadership and Top Performer Alignment(02:19) Company Core Values and Honesty(02:43) Scaling Culture in Founder-Led Companies(03:46) Making the Intangible Tangible(04:23) Revealed vs. Stated Character(04:40) The Benefit of Outsourcing the Process of Developing Company Values(05:54) Company Values Are Always Evolving(06:27) The Goldilocks Approach(07:48) Sponsor: Metaview(09:52) Quick Process to Rough Draft(10:20) Doordash Example(11:56) Pendo's Working Committee and Bottoms Up Approach(13:19) The Importance of Timing(14:25) Wrap

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics —

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Timestamps:

(00:00) Intro

(00:19) The Reorg Dilemma

(00:56) Challenges in Big Companies

(03:00) Balancing Perfection and Speed

(04:43) HR & Legal Risk

(08:55) Sponsor: Metaview

(10:49) Employment Lawyers’ Limitations

(12:33) Intellectual Trap

(13:28) Workshopping Different Scenarios

(15:23) Wrap

He dishes on everything from why he sends champagne to candidates' hotel rooms to why he encourages employees to quit and start their own companies.

If you’re listening on podcast platforms, be sure to check out our Substack or YouTube channel to see Tom’s framework slides onscreen:

Substack: https://hrheretics.substack.com/p/smart-hiring-with-tom-clayton

YouTube: Smart Hiring with Tom Clayton

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED LINK:

The Sales Acceleration Formula: Using Data, Technology, and Inbound Selling to go from $0 to $100 Million: https://www.amazon.com/Sales-Acceleration-Formula-Technology-Inbound/dp/1119047072

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:37) The Employee Attribute Chart Explained(03:41) Contextual Attributes(05:00) Answering with Cues vs. Direct Questions(10:46) Training Others on the Attribute Chart(11:28) The Value of Multiple Interviews(13:15) Emotional Investment in the Group(14:17) Speed Dating Analogy for Interviews(14:27) Sponsor: Metaview(16:21) Expediting the Interview Process(17:03) Job Simulations and Work Trials(18:36) Difficulties with Senior Exec Simulations(20:39) The Importance of the "Mock Exec Meeting"(21:57) Making Intangibles Tangible(22:54) Evolution of Team Building Attributes(23:09) Team Building and Outreach(26:47) Don't Be a "Brand B***h"(29:11) The Value of Personal Touches(32:31) Sustaining Great Teams During Hyperscale(35:00) Meta's Performance Process(38:39) Encouraging Entrepreneurship(42:23) Altruism in the Industry(42:31) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:13) Layering Question on Dear Heretics(02:06) Initial Thoughts on Layering(02:58) Human Aspect of Layering(03:43) Importance of Coaches & Advisors(04:00) New Hires vs Existing Employees(07:16) Confidential Search on Layering(10:08) Sponsor: Metaview(12:02) Handling Layering: CEO/CPO Perspective(14:13) Expanding Roles in Startups(16:00) New Executives and Fail States(16:57) The Shepherd Role of a Leader(17:18) The Layered Employee's Perspective(18:05) Two Paths: Spiteful vs. Gracious(20:18) Building Something Bigger Than Yourself(20:59) Maturity Matters(21:20) Wrap

Metaview co-founder and CEO Siadhal Magos reveals how AI's real impact in an org is making sense of workplace conversations, performance reviews, and all the messy human stuff that HR deals with.

Start recognizing the opportunities presented by ‘unstructured data’ to transform HR from subjective guesswork to data-driven decisions, without losing the human touch.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:52) Why Unstructured Data Matters in the AI Era(02:18) Frustrations with Structured Data Entry(03:24) Making Sense of Data at Scale (04:01) Data is Everywhere(04:55) AI's Ability to Read Data(06:25) Moving Towards Objectivity with AI(07:16) Using Digital Exhaust for Team Building(09:01) Sponsor: Metaview(11:13) What if the AI Reads Wrong?(11:56) Human in the Loop(12:24) Levels of AI Autonomy(14:54) Problems, Missteps, and Best Practices(15:44) The Gradient of AI Implementation(16:47) AI and Human Nuance(17:33) Capturing Unstructured Data is the Foundation for AI (19:13) Garbage in, Garbage out(19:22) Wrap

Along the way, they reveal how corporate luxuries like two-hour gym breaks get replaced by the exhilarating but exhausting reality of building something from scratch.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:30) Understanding Startup Culture(03:26) Founder Relationship Importance(03:52) Pre-Start Relationship Building(05:35) Importance of Being "One with the People"(07:04) Danger of Being Viewed as the Enemy(08:25) Startup Employees Being Smart & Critical(09:19) Connecting with Early Employees(09:30) Sponsor: Metaview(11:01) Understanding "Sacred Cows"(12:28) Tactical Advice - Meeting Everyone(12:57) Goals of Meeting Everyone(14:00) Context Switching Exhaustion(14:25) Energy Management Importance(15:24) Non-Negotiable Self-Care(16:00) Wrap Up

They reveal insider strategies for transforming harsh directives into meaningful performance frameworks, while warning against becoming the dreaded "person of no."

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

RELATED PODCAST:

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:17) Offer of Support for the California Wildfires(03:44) Dear Heretics(04:00) Question on Mandated Attrition Targets(05:15) Contextualizing Performance Targets(06:32) Genesis of these Performance Discussions(07:00) Examples of Poor Implementation: Tesla's RIFs(08:03) Sponsor: Metaview(10:05) RIFs versus Performance(10:42) How to respond to a CEO who says fire the bottom 5%(12:40) The Importance of Defining 'Why'(13:23) CEOs and the complexity of execution(14:00) Reframing the Problem for CEO's(14:31) The tactical anxiety of HR leaders(15:42) Pre and Post Pandemic Environments(16:23) The danger of being the "no" person/team(17:18) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH COLIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Colin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinzima

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

CHECK OUT:

Omni: https://omni.co/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction(01:44) No G&A at Omni(04:50) Learning by Doing(09:10) Maximizing Roles (10:23) The Need for G&A (12:53) Sponsor: Metaview(14:49) Benefits of Doing the Work(15:32) Hiring a People Leader(18:19) Contractors vs FTEs(20:39) In-Office vs Remote (23:08) Homogenous Culture (26:25) Recruiting for Non-Networked People (29:31) Performance Management (32:24) Sales Ops and Performance (34:47) Unique Recruiting at Omni (37:00) Looker Acquisition by Google(42:24) Wrap

Find out why Square banned hiring from the payments industry while building a payments company. Discover how conventional wisdom about senior talent can become startup kryptonite and why the safe choice isn't always the smart choice.

Bryan Power is a veteran Silicon Valley People executive who's shaped talent strategy at tech giants like Google and Yahoo, built Square from 150 employees, and now leads People at Nextdoor where he champions innovative approaches to hiring and leadership development.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH BRYAN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Bryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanpower

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

CHECK OUT:

Nextdoor:

https://nextdoor.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:48) Nextdoor Leadership Transition

(02:10) Founder's Mentality & Return

(04:03) Six Years at Nextdoor - Career Journey

(05:29) Growth vs. Turnaround Experience

(07:59) The False Signal of Company Logos

(10:29) Square's Early Days & Recruiting

(12:25) Leadership Training at Square

(15:07) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:01) Culture and Training Truths

(21:30) Innovation vs. Industry Experience

(25:59) The Pattern Matching Trap

(29:39) Talent Density Discussion

(33:58) Performance Management & Up-leveling

(40:34)) Big Company vs. Startup Dynamics

(43:07) Aligning with Different Leadership Styles

(47:14) Wrap

Together, we've built something extraordinary: a community of forward-thinking HR professionals who dare to question the status quo, welcome straight talk, and thrive on healthy debate.

In today's special year-end episode, we're sharing some of our top moments, most controversial takes, and the conversations that simply blew our minds with new approaches to people, hiring, managing, and shaping the culture of high performing teams. Think of this as your ultimate HR Heretics highlight reel – where spicy takes meet practical wisdom.

So whether you're a longtime heretic or just discovering us today, buckle up. Come January 2nd 2025, we'll be back with new guests.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Molly Graham: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3gegNOB1RSWuKofaWcjYWS?si=AGhfhyhgRsu8LSUlN7wtjg

Tomas Tungusz: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1B4aYWnV9pJkcQuCgq1tTy?si=d-iRpEMrQX62JwiKQi9nGg

Vijay Pendakur: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4ccUUyNPVUjBEc3V9h1SEf?si=LLhIXfbkSMaWaIyPnfHmfA

Patty McCord: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nHxmrGnGFJ23ropYPc4YE?si=9WzJ1VdnQjS4vlS7kbBy8A

Andy Price: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2LmfYrgz58M1bjU4kj8t7i?si=UpCAZwNkR_SVg-29AY-_Zg

Colleen McCreary: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0WuLzUYeDaPIsOTbtTCZFD?si=EnzuH3v-S9SO1zTCBvBwng

Brett McQueener: https://open.spotify.com/episode/666pMzHni919QMMhe4NPWQ?si=vRyeGi3XSEuHaEjKZQFVew

Matt Oberhart: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6lYnLlZrBGNZOdw97NoElB?si=vwJTyZp4SIyQzgDQY6eOFA

LJ Brock: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0Jj5U59L703HKVZNg9QJef?si=5Oz5FpnDT9yHO2YekmY9jw

DHH: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6AD2rSoIi9gF0WlZ3gqoz3?si=Km774GZJSraHW4ljuI0f-g

Peterson Conway: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5jQ2TsSMMmlWuJ3vAayHoR?si=SdnrYwnZQQSo4f5tR2XLfw

--

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:15) Molly Graham

(00:53) Tomas Tungusz

(02:03) Vijay Pendakur

(03:15) Patti McCord

(04:44) Andy Price

(05:50) Colleen McCreary

(06:41) Brett McQueener

(07:49)  Matt Oberhart

(08:44) LJ Brock

(09:46) DHH

(10:56) Peterson Conway

(12:21) Nolan's Best

(14:14) Kelli's Best

(15:02) Wrap

(15:08) Sponsor: Metaview

Kelli and Nolan bare it all in their 2024 wrap-up. Get their must-read books, binge-worthy podcasts, and raw personal journeys - including Kelly's identity crisis and Nolan's toughest year yet. Plus, hear why 2025 might be the year to go 'risk on' and why your company's headcount could be holding you back.

No fluff, just real talk from two HR leaders who've been there.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:53) Reflections on 2024

(07:24) Best of 2024 - Books

(11:13) Best of 2024 - Podcasts

(14:47) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:20) The Real Talk: Our Raw 2024 Stories

(19:16) Bold Predictions and Why 2025 Will Hit Different

(28:45) That’s a Wrap 🎁

From 11x.ai's $75M raise to replace human sales reps, to broader implications for recruiting and tech roles, discover why VCs are betting big on AI labor. This is a candid discussion about job displacement, productivity gains, and why getting your hands dirty with AI might be your best career move.

Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

CHECK OUT:

Metaview: https://www.metaview.ai/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:00) 11x.ai and Their Products (Alice & Mike)

(02:03) Discussion of VCs' Interest in AI Labor Market

(03:43) Labor vs Software Market Size Comparison

(05:37) Evolution of Software Sales Models

(07:18) Current State and Limitations of AI SDRs

(08:15) Discussion of AI Job Displacement

(09:01) Types of Roles Most Affected by AI

(12:42) Historical Context of Automation in Tech

(14:12) Future of Work and AI Integration

(16:39) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:59) Company Spending and Hiring Philosophy

(20:00) Future of Recruiting and AI Integration

(23:21) Historical Job Evolution and Future Opportunities

(25:15) Importance of Hands-on AI Experience

(26:24) Impact of AI on Engineering Productivity

(27:05) AI's Effect on Recruiter Efficiency

(27:53) Wrap

Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:21) Dear Heretics Question: Cross-Functional HR Collaboration

(01:11) The Missing Link in HR Teams

(02:42) DoorDash's GM Model & Early Learnings

(04:36) The Weekly Business Review Magic

(05:13) Building One Cohesive HR Experience

(07:09) The Color Gradient Approach to HR

(08:01) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:42) Pod Structure: SWAT Teams for People Ops

(10:38) Embracing Regular Reorgs

(11:44) Why Messy HR is Good HR

(12:29) Mobility as a Silo-Breaker

(13:05) Wrap

Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Chris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisyeh

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED LINKS:

* Infinite Learning - Why Unlearning Is The Critical Learning Skill | Chris Yeh | TEDxGrandviewHeights

* The Lightning-Fast Path to Building Massively Valuable Companies: https://www.blitzscaling.com/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:20) Chris's Palpable Energy

(02:54) Passion vs Skill

(04:08) Charisma in Leadership

(08:09) Unlearning Old Things

(14:29) Sponsor: Metaview

(15:41) Writing a Book with Reid Hoffman

(23:57) Picking and Prioritizing Projects

(24:58) Staying Relevant

(27:15) Blitzscaling: Adaptability & Resilience

(32:21) What Would Chris Take Back from Blitzscaling?

(37:01) Picking Companies as an Employee

(40:25) Assessing a Founder

(43:15) Bias in Assessments

(45:16) Negotiating Founder Shares

(51:55) Choosing Principles over Numbers

(51:55) Offer Package Hack

(53:28) Wrap

In this episode, Kelli and Nolan cut through the noise with actionable insights from veteran CPO Jeff Diana. Learn why joining sales calls, understanding your P&L, and getting your hands dirty in customer support might be your secret weapons.

Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana-a1906212/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:14) HR is a Business Function: Action vs. Rhetoric

(02:09) The Business-First Approach Do's and Don'ts

(04:19) Fostering a Deeper Understanding of the Business

(06:01) Product Certification and Experiential Learning

(06:57) Understanding a Founder's Emotional Investment (even if it seems irrational)

(08:52) Knowing the Numbers

(13:14) Strategic Time Investment and Knowledge Acquisition

(15:56) Including Customer Success in Knowledge Gathering

(16:18) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:38) Internal Reviews and Cross-Functional Collaboration

(19:01) Internal Best Practices and Efficiency

(20:47) Growing Fluidity Between HR and other Business Functions

(21:14) Wrap

Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as they spill the tea on transforming those dreaded "show me the numbers" moments into power moves. Turns out, the secret sauce isn't hiding from spreadsheets—it's owning them with style.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:14) Increasing Scrutiny of HR budgets from CEOs, CFOs, and Board Members

(01:50) Stakeholder Management and Proactive Planning

(04:42) Assume Good Intent and Take Ownership

(06:35) Earned Trust and Common Experience

(08:05) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:12) New Roles and Re-establishing Credibility and the CFOs Perspective

(10:36) Advice and Next Steps

(12:07) Closing and Outro

Donald joins Kelli and Nolan in a candid conversation about evolving HR, squandered DEI opportunities, and building lasting relationships in hyper-growth environments.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

RECOMMENDED PODCAST:

🎙️ Unpack Pricing - Dive into the dark arts of SaaS pricing with Metronome CEO Scott Woody and tech leaders. Learn how strategic pricing drives explosive revenue growth in today's biggest companies like Snowflake, Cockroach Labs, Dropbox and more.

_

KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Donald: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldfknight/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39) Donald's initial reluctance to join HR and his perspective shift

(02:32) Evolution of the HR profession

(04:06) Pushback against employee-centric HR practices

(07:22) The "war for talent" and its aftermath

(10:53) The focus on immutable traits in diversity initiatives

(14:05) Sponsor: Metaview

(15:17) Importance of company stances and differentiation

(19:15) Donald's paternity leave plan and its impact

(25:35) The recruiting process and its unexpected outcomes

(32:45) Donald's experience working with founders

(39:50) Donald's favorite interview questions and their rationale

(44:30) Donald's fitness journey and its importance

(49:20) Wrap

Didier sits down with Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for a conversation about company culture, data, and mapping the world of work on two axes—trust versus mission.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

RECOMMENDED PODCAST:

🎙️ Unpack Pricing - Dive into the dark arts of SaaS pricing with Metronome CEO Scott Woody and tech leaders. Learn how strategic pricing drives explosive revenue growth in today's biggest companies like Snowflake, Cockroach Labs, Dropbox and more.

_

KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Didier: https://www.linkedin.com/in/didierelzinga

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:50) From Harry Potter to CultureAmp CEO

(04:51) CultureAmp in the Film Industry & Anonymous Feedback

(08:40) Culture-First Companies & the Importance of Resilience

(13:24) Current Trends in Employee Engagement & Expectations

(15:12) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:24) The Future of Employer-Employee Relationships

(19:20) Enduring Truths in Culture & Growth

(21:13) Growth, Ambiguity, and Leadership

(23:54) Data-Driven Insights & Addressing Gender Gaps

(27:20) The Director to VP Transition & Hard Lessons

(31:45) Influencing Change & the Power of Data

(33:55) The Value & Limitations of Engagement Surveys

(37:45) Defining Strategy & the Feedback "Workout"

(39:01) CultureAmp's Non-Negotiables & Growth

(43:07) The Power of Storytelling & Authenticity

(46:32) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:52) Avoid Premature Judgments

(04:43) Nuance and Relationship Building

(07:43) Sponsor Message: Metaview

(08:55) Further Discussion: Investing in Existing Leadership

(11:25) Additional Insights: Truth and Trust

(13:02) The Risk of Premature Action

(14:23) Summary and Emotional Dynamics

(14:46) Board Involvement and Conclusion

(15:37) Wrap

In an era where employees are increasingly using legal terms like 'discrimination' and 'retaliation,' how can companies balance protecting themselves from frivolous lawsuits while ensuring legitimate grievances are properly addressed?

Explore how social media, changing workplace expectations, and generational shifts are fueling this trend, while offering practical insights on navigating these challenges. The conversation balances protecting employee rights with managing unfounded claims, providing valuable perspectives for HR professionals and business leaders trying to build fair, transparent workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH MELANIE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-naranjo/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:10) Rising Employee Litigation

(03:25) Traditional & Contrarian Responses

(06:10) Deeper Issues & Lack of Transparency

(07:30) Subjectivity & Company Liability

(09:30) Litigation as a Trend & Setting Expectations

(11:40) Employee Perspective & Open Dialogue

(15:40) Company Burden & Employee Expectations

(15:43) Sponsor: Metaview

(18:10) Clear Expectations & Self-Selection

(21:40) Internal Training & Consistency

(23:20) Value of Community & Legal Counsel

(26:10) Key Takeaways & The Bambi Golden Rule

(28:08) Wrap

Drawing from their extensive backgrounds in recruiting and HR leadership, they help listeners navigate everything from interview feedback to career growth, offering insider perspectives that challenge traditional HR thinking and empower professionals to take control of their career narrative.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:00) Dear Heretics Question - Scaling HR

(02:45) Understanding Hiring Manager Requirements

(04:24) Focus on Aptitude and Mindset

(04:58) Recruiters' Current Challenges

(06:13) Anticipate Feedback and Be Proactive

(07:00) Highlight Strengths and Address Gaps

(07:35) Proactive Preparation for Interviews

(08:22) "Show Up With A Solution"

(08:40) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:52) Value of HRBP Experience

(10:47) Don't Underestimate Your Experience

(11:02) Narrative is Key

(11:25) HR and Sales Parallels

(11:46) Focus on Personal Narrative

(12:13) Gain Experience Inside Your Company

(13:36) Turn Feedback into Growth

(14:05) Architect Your Own Experience

(14:18) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Trisha: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:20) Navigating a Founder-CEO, Product Guru Dynamic

(03:00) Establishing Boundaries and Trust

(06:40) The Importance of a Lengthy Recruiting Process

(09:40) Assessing Product Leaders

(14:40) Managing Stakeholder Input and AI Pressure

(17:50) Managing the Tension Between Sales and Product

(20:10) Navigating the AI Hype Cycle

(24:20) Tricia's Personal Use of AI

(26:40) Emerging Female Executives in Tech

(30:40) The Future of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I)

(36:00) The Evolution of HR and the "Department of No"

(40:50) Working with a Great HR Leader

(43:40) Wrap

Their candid conversation offers insights on maintaining professionalism and unity when half the country faces inevitable disappointment.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The Election and Preparing for a Divisive Outcome

(04:00) Supporting the Winner

(05:10) Homogeneous Support and the Undoing of Progress

(08:12) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:35) Social Media and Mental Health

(10:20) The Addiction of Election Results

(11:25) The Importance of Routine and Mental Health

(12:20) TikTok and Chaos

(12:21) Confusing Voting Laws

(12:53) Historical Context and Election Integrity

(14:00) Navigating a Divided Workplace

(14:25) Setting Expectations Before the Election

(18:04) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Ciara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ciaralakhani/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Elevate People:

https://elevatepeople.io/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:50) Ciara's move to Paris in 2020

(04:54) Challenges of being an HR exec in another country

(05:53) Stereotype against French HR people

(07:08) Communication style in France

(08:30) Assimilating with French HR professionals

(10:30) Generalizations about France

(11:45) Learning the nuances of French labor laws

(13:35) Navigating HR in different countries

(15:18) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:18) Punitive government in France

(18:39) Being a translator in HR

(19:50) Working with lawyers

(20:45) Org politics in France

(23:04) Unpacking the co-founder story

(23:50) Org navigation and politics in Paris

(27:30) Earning trust in a new culture

(29:50) French tactics and meeting people where they are

(30:00) Ciara's transition to being independent

(31:38) Assimilating into French culture

(33:00) Wrap

Is the era of the status-seeking executive dead? Explore how AI, increased competition, and evolving workplace culture are killing the 'empty suit' leader. From Silicon Valley's trenches to corporate boardrooms, discover why authenticity is replacing authority, and why rolling up your sleeves might be the new key to power in modern business.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

The Empty Suit Executive by Tyler Hogge

https://tylerhogge.com/2024/10/16/the-empty-suit-executive/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:29) The Empty Suit Executive

(03:43) Shift in Management Styles and the Rise of Doers

(05:34) Clash Between Founders and "Empty Suit" Executives

(06:17) The Changing Dynamics of Large Tech Companies

(07:17) Venture-Backed Companies as a Bellwether

(09:00) Sponsor: MetaView

(10:06) Recognizing Our Own "Empty Suit" Tendencies

(11:30) Building a Brand and Leading by Example

(12:40) New Era of Leadership

(13:30) Adaptability in a Competitive Landscape

(14:04) The Rise of AI

(14:36) Wrap

From revolutionizing feedback systems to challenging the "founder mode" hype, Jared shares raw insights from his journey as Silicon Valley's youngest executive.

But that's just the beginning – he also unveils the psychological trap keeping high achievers perpetually unfulfilled (hint: it's not what you think), and shares the counterintuitive secret to genuine satisfaction.

Whether you're a startup founder, HR leader, or ambitious professional, this episode will fundamentally change how you think about performance, leadership, and success. Warning: your perspective on workplace traditions will never be the same.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH JARED, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jared: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredsf/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

First Call Coaching:

https://www.firstcall.co/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:59) Radical Performance Review Process 

(06:18) Getting the CEO on Board

(08:48) People Operations as Core Business

(10:20) The Move Away from Performance Reviews

(10:50) Feedback Systems for Introverts

(12:07) The Semantics of Performance Reviews

(12:48) Experimenting with Performance Reviews

(13:52) Founder Mode

(19:18) Sponsor: Metaview

(20:10) Copy-pasting Culture Decks

(20:54) Revolt Against Traditional Management

(21:46) Fandiger Mounder

(22:16) Treating People Like Wrists

(24:14) Being the Youngest Person in the Room

(27:37) The Importance of EQ

(28:42) Layoff Experience

(30:35) The Ego Trap

(32:38) Founder Coaching

(33:03) Jared's Coaching Practice

(37:21) Hiring and Firing in Hyper Growth

(37:54) Hire With Speed, Fire with Respect

(42:00) The Cost of PIPs

(43:04) The Importance of Respect

(43:52) The Hedonic Treadmill

(48:06) Gratitude as the Antidote

(48:22) Wrap

From conquering impostor syndrome to escaping the corporate echo chamber, they offer practical strategies—like daily routines, nature walks, and building authentic relationships—while reminding leaders that it's okay not to have all the answers.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:20) Practical Approaches to Reducing Burnout01:48) Key Insights on Managing Professional Burnout(05:01) A Perspective on Failure(07:14)  Confronting Negative Self-Talk in High-Pressure Roles(08:36) Sponsor: Metaview(09:48) Importance of Saying "I Don't Know"(10:17) Finding Balance: Avoiding Professional Extremes(12:53) Breaking Free from the Corporate Echo Chamber(14:08) The Signifiance of Strong Relationships(15:13) Sharing and Collaboration(16:34) The Tangible Nature of Energy(17:07) Understanding Energy's Impact in the Workplace(18:17) Gaining Fresh Perspectives Through History & Experience(19:00) Practicing Gratitude in Professional Life(20:09) Wrap

From the brutal reality of today's hiring landscape to the unexpected reasons top companies avoid IPOs, Walker challenges conventional wisdom, exploring how the "Big Stay" phenomenon and emerging equity models are redefining employee-company relationships.

With startling data on fund performance and company shutdowns, this conversation poses a provocative question: Are we witnessing the end of the startup golden age, or the birth of a new, leaner ecosystem?

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Carta:

https://carta.com/data/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:29) Hiring Market Remains Brutal(05:06) Tenure Correlation in Layoffs(10:08) The "Big Stay"(10:15) Sponsor: Metaview(11:27) Venture Ecosystem Driven by Investor Returns(15:34) M&A Activity is Rising(17:22) Emerging Fund Managers Under Pressure(19:37) Employee Compensation Trends(21:16) Company Valuations(25:13) Dissonance Between IPO Market and Public Market Performance(29:14) Series A and Beyond Round Activity(32:05) Resetting Expectations in Venture(37:38) Emerging Models for Employee Equity(40:23) Equity Returning to the Pool(42:16) The 90-Day Exercise Window(43:48) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan explore the unsettling convergence of technology and human ambition, challenging us to redefine trust, authenticity, and competence in the modern workplace.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Candidates Cheating on Interviews with AI

(02:40) Interviewing is High Stakes

(04:07) AI is Getting Better

(05:21) AI Native Candidates

(06:49) The Importance of Human Qualities

(7:44) Sponsor: Metaview

(08:56) Quality Over Quantity

(10:18) Referrals and Bias

(11:04) Soft Skills Are Hard to Replace

(11:17) Fake Candidates

(12:43) The Need for Verification

(13:36) Poor Recruiting Practices

(14:02) Proof of Personhood

(14:32) A Chasm of Technology

(15:15) Expect the Unexpected

(16:02) Awareness is the First Step

(16:19) Wrap

From the critical role of empathy in leadership transitions to the long-term value of investing in talent development, Price's insights challenge listeners preconcieved notions about hiring and maintaining world-class execs. This episode is a compelling exploration of how the right people, in the right roles, with the right support, can transform good companies into great ones.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH ANDY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Andy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyprice1/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Artisanal Ventures:

https://artisanalv.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39)Why is the hit rate for execs so low?

(03:47) How to mitigate a bad executive outcome

(04:18) The Artisanal process to mitigate a bad outcome

(07:44) Back channels in executive recruiting

(11:05) When should a CEO back channel?

(12:40) How many back channels are too many?

(14:00) Dealing with personality fit issues after hiring an exec

(16:34) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:46) The importance of onboarding and post-hire support

(18:47) How to vet search firms

(22:37) Name-dropping in executive recruiting

(25:13) Founders trying to run searches on their own

(29:05) The importance of staying close with search firms

(30:13) Hiring for experience vs. trajectory

(34:16) The importance of orchestration in executive transitions

(35:40) The role of ego in executive transitions

(36:13) Involvement of layered executives in the interview process

(38:53) Setting expectations for layered executives

(39:22) The importance of studying successful executive transitions

(40:40) How to help up-and-comers scale

(43:03) The importance of advisors and coaches

(45:36) Executive career management

(48:43) Executive tenure and the importance of grit

(51:17) Importance of doing meaningful work before seeking new roles

(51:55) Importance of authenticity in the executive world

(52:38) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan dissect the disconnect between lofty promises and marginal progress, questioning whether current approaches are effective, and challenge listeners to envision a "Chapter Two" for DEI—one that prioritizes authentic inclusion over mere metrics.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:20) Microsoft Fires DEI Team: A Growing Trend in Tech

(01:01) Conflicting Messages: Microsoft's DEI Stance Analyzed

(03:16) Evaluating DEI Tactics: A Decade in Review

(04:26) Early Intervention: Google's Approach to Long-Term DEI

(05:42) The Missing Piece: Lack of Alternative DEI Strategies

(07:28) Questioning Tech's DEI Commitment

(08:10) Recognizing DEI's Cultural Impact

(09:40) Chapter Two of DEI: Hoping for Creative New Approaches

(10:32) Sponsor: Metaview

(11:43) Progress in Workplace Inclusivity

(13:35) Rethinking DEI Implementation

(14:10) Leading the Way in DEI Innovation

(15:31) The Need for Qualitative DEI Measures

(16:15) Wrap

Discover with Kelli, Nolan and Christine how transparency, data-driven decisions, and a willingness to swear occasionally are reshaping modern tech workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CHRISTINE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Christine: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christine-centa-0a809b7/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Hashicorp:

https://www.hashicorp.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:59) Christine's Approach to HR and Compensation Trends

(03:40) Compensation and Equity in a Macroeconomic Environment

(07:12) The Importance of Recruiter Feedback

(07:35) Compensation and Internal Equity

(10:49) The Challenges of Changing Equity Plans

(11:30) The Trade-Offs of One-Year Grants

(12:27) Balancing Retention and Performance

(12:37) Stepped Approaches to Equity Grants

(15:57) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(18:02) The Importance of Transparency and Frequent Check-Ins

(18:52) Predicting Attrition and Hiring

(19:57) The Shift to Publicly Traded HashiCorp

(20:08) Scaling Processes and Maintaining Culture

(23:25) The Remote Work Debate

(31:34) Championing Successes and Addressing Concerns

(35:15) AI Strategy in HR and the Challenges of AI Deployment

(37:16) AI in Recruiting

(40:15) Candidate Adaptability to AI

(42:58) The Hidden Work of AI Deployment

(43:06) The Emerging Role of AI Specialists

(43:59) Wrap

Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as as they unpack this viral document that's part survival guide, part corporate manifesto, with a dash of unapologetic ambition. Is it a brilliantly authentic approach to leadership or a recipe for workplace burnout?

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) Mr. Beast's leaked document

(03:58) Praising clarity in workplace expectations

(05:06) Discussing document accessibility 

(07:04) Authenticity in company culture

(09:10) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(11:13) Speculating on the document's origins

(13:02) Learning from negative experiences

(13:57) Authenticity in leadership

(16:13) The role of authenticity in attracting talent

(20:53) Balancing critique with appreciation for clarity

(21:42) Wrap

Candid feedback or comfortable silence? Kelli and Nolan dissect the art of critiquing colleagues, challenging listeners to reconsider their approach to workplace honesty. Discover why your ego might be your own worst enemy, and learn how to transform awkward conversations into opportunities for growth.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

BOOK MENTIONED:

"Ego is the Enemy" by Ryan Holiday:

https://www.amazon.com/Ego-Enemy-Ryan-Holiday/dp/1591847818

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(01:14) A Real-World Example: Kelli's Feedback to Nolan

(02:27) Nolan's Response: The Importance of Inquiry

(04:56) Building Relationships Through Honest Communication

(06:36) Ego as a Barrier to Effective Feedback

(07:34) Challenging Perceptions: The Curious Leader

(08:46) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(10:50) Learning from Blunt Feedback: Nolan's Robot Story

(13:36) Using Humor to Ease Feedback Conversations

(14:31) Overcoming Perfectionism and Job Security Fears

(15:44) Reframing Feedback: Alternative Conversation Starters

(16:42) The Golden Rule of Feedback: Reciprocity in Communication

(17:58) Wrap

Will Amazon's RTO policy lead to increased employee turnover and a decline in morale? Listen as Kelli and Nolan explore the implications of these changes on workplace culture, employee expectations, and the broader business landscape.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

RELATED EPISODE:

Everyone’s Talking About Founder Mode

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS

(00:20) Andy Jassy's Letter on Culture

(01:50) Two Big Changes at Amazon

(03:00) Amazon's Employee Growth

(04:40) Innovation and In-Person Work

(05:10) Trade-offs of Remote Work

(06:00) Clarity in RTO Communications

(07:56) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:10) Exceptions to RTO Policy

(11:40) Top Performers and Exceptions

(13:20) Business Reality vs Expectations

Thinking of swiping right on a colleague? Find out with Kelli and Nolan if workplace romance is worth the potential awkward elevator rides and why mixing power and passion is a recipe for corporate disaster.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Intro

(01:16) Workplace Relationships

(03:01) Why Dating Within Reporting Chain is Improper

(05:17) Company Policies on Office Relationships

(09:15) Hypothetical: CEO Dating a Junior Employee

(09:33) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(13:31) Leaders Dating Employees from Different Departments

(16:18) Disclosing Relationships Between Colleagues

(18:29) Handling Unwanted Advances from Coworkers

(19:02) The One-Ask Rule

(20:04) Codifying Relationship Policies

(21:38) Wrap

Explore how HR pros can keep things from blowing up when the executive team calls the shots.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED BOOK:

The Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable by Patrick M. Lencioni

https://www.amazon.com/Five-Dysfunctions-Team-Leadership-Fable/dp/0787960756

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The "First Team" Concept

(01:09) Balancing Executive and Functional Teams

(03:07) Importance of Organizational Alignment

(05:58) Handling Team Disagreements with Executive Decisions

(07:58) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:02) Avoiding Toxic Leadership Behaviors

(11:44) Explaining Decisions to Teams

(13:52) Value of Transparency in Leadership

(15:11) Addressing Team Members' Concerns

(17:01) Managing Team Turnover and Succession Planning

(18:06) Preventing and Addressing Team Toxicity

(18:36) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED:

Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39) Challenges of Multiple Roles

(01:45) Navigating Different Relationships

(03:14) Setting Boundaries in Conversations

(04:49) Balancing Work and Personal Life

(05:36) Building a Strong, Adaptable Team

(07:52) Maximizing Meeting Effectiveness

(08:50) Prioritizing Tasks and Self-Care

(09:00) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:36) Reducing Digital Distractions

(11:33) Better Meetings

(12:14) The Power of Phone Calls

(14:33) Walking and Talking

(15:45) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan discuss causes, including pandemic effects and company restructuring, and talk about strategies for retention and career growth in a restructured, doer-focused workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK:

Report: Promotions disappeared in Q1 2024

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction and Welcome

(00:16) Promotion Data Analysis

(01:15) Discussion on Promotion Trends

(03:49) Impact of Economic Changes on Promotions

(06:39) Future of Job Market and AI

(07:50) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(09:55) Continued Discussion on AI and Job Market

(16:27) Final Thoughts and Advice

(16:43) Wrap

Is it time to ditch the old-school "wait and see" approach and embrace a more performance-driven model?

Listen to Guissu, Kelli and Nolan as they offer insights into how to bridge the gap and foster collaboration between legal and HR teams.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH GUISSU, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Guissu: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guissu/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

General Catalyst:

https://www.generalcatalyst.com/

General Catalyst's Equity Refresh Survey:

https://www.generalcatalyst.com/perspectives/equity-refresh-survey-2024

Related Podcast:

How Big Should Your Org Grow

https://hrheretics.substack.com/p/how-big-should-your-org-grow

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Key Findings of the Equity Refresh Survey

(06:03) Treating Equity as Carefully as Cash

(07:11) Vesting Schedules and Equity as a Long-Term Incentive

(08:23) The Debate on Vesting Cliffs in Refresh Grants

(09:46)The Logic and Challenges of Refresh Grants

(11:43) The Importance of Paying for Performance

(14:34) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:40) Challenges in Designing Equity Refresh Programs

(19:07) Different Approaches to Refresh Grants

(25:24) Retaining Top Performers

(28:51) Connecting New Hire and Refresh Ranges

(29:25) Equity Choice and Fairness

(30:49) Equity Trade-Offs and Innovation

(32:57) Collaboration between HR and Other Departments

(37:11) Facilitation as a Key Skill for HR Leaders

(40:28) Branding and Executive Involvement in Training

(43:30) The Reputation of Lawyers in the HR Profession

(44:54) Risk Calculus and Cultural Risk

(46:02) Communication as a Key to Problem Solving

(47:37) One-Way Door and Two-Way Door Decisions

(47:55) Wrap

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

LINK:

Founder Mode https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) What is Founder Mode?

(03:59) Empathy for Founders

(04:54) The Role of Executives and Operators

(07:19) Blending Founder and Manager Mindsets

(09:56) Defensiveness and Personal Growth

(11:45) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:50) Kelli’s Best Take Ever?

How can companies foster inclusion while avoiding divisiveness and proving business value?

Vijay, Kelli and Nolan candidly discuss the future of corporate diversity initiatives amid pushback and the search for measurable ROI, and exchange ideas for how to evolve diversity initiatives for impact.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network: https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VIJAY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Vijay: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijaypendakur

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

“Closing the Opportunity Gap”

https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Opportunity-Gap-Identity-Conscious-Strategies/dp/1620363127

Watch out for “The Alchemy of Talent: Leading Teams to Peak Performance” available for pre-order: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Talent-Leading-Teams-Performance/dp/B0DCHB9RYZ/ref=sr[…]d=1724904614&refinements=p_27%3AVijay+Pendakur&s=books&sr=1-1

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:28) Current state of DEI and recent pushback from various sectors

(03:12) Analysis of DEI investment timeline and systemic unfairness

(05:26) Higher education's response to DEI legislation and demographic shifts

(08:38) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(09:58) Challenges in measuring DEI progress and impact

(12:48) Misunderstandings and Semantics

(17:55) Corporate vs. Social DEI

(22:45) Sponsor: Metaview

(26:38) Scope of care in corporations and how COVID impacted DEI initiatives

(35:12) Challenges in measuring DEI impact and focus on hiring metrics

(40:41) Team effectiveness and the role of inclusion in high-performance teams

(45:00) Impact of diversity on team performance and manager effectiveness

(50:25) Future of DEI programs and evolving role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs)

(53:38) Reframing DEI for business performance and organizational effectiveness

(55:00) Discussion on colorblindness and meritocracy in business contexts

(57:03) Critique of MEI framework and the need for ongoing DEI interventions

(58:10) Wrap

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:55) Recognizing It's Time to Leave(03:54) The Importance of Networking and Taking Recruiter Calls(06:57) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo(09:59) Job Tenure and Career Narratives(12:53) How to Put in Notice(16:55) Sponsor: Metaview(18:55) Vesting and Financial Considerations When Leaving(19:53) Maintaining Relationships After Leaving a Company(22:53) Closing Thoughts and Lessons Learned(23:01) Wrap

Valentina shares the lasting lessons and people practices from working under Ray Dalio at Bridgewater, Garner's unique approach to the interview process, and her approach to hybrid work, manager training, L&D, and performance reviews. Valentina offers an absolute masterclass in innovating hiring and people strategies.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VALENTINA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Valentina: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentinagissin

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Garner Health: https://www.getgarner.com/

Principles by Ray Dalio: https://www.principles.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:47) Valentina's Experience at Bridgewater

(01:27) Dot Collector and Feedback System

(09:38) Managing Hybrid Work Environments

(11:27) Commitment to Remote Work and Hybrid Teams

(16:21) Managing Global and Synchronous Work

(18:15) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(20:03) Improving Interview Training through Recording

(22:06) Getting and Giving Signal in the Interview Process

(25:38) The Correlation Between Structured Critical Thinking Questions and Successful Performance

(28:18) Creating a Feedback Culture at Garner

(30:49) Sponsor: Metaview

(31:03) The Role of Performance Reviews in Compensation and Data Gathering

(36:21) Using Real-World Simulations in Manager Training

(45:55) Designing a Function for Difficult Performance Situations at Garner

(46:16) Wrap

They dive deep into this controversial practice and how back channels can impact candidate selection, emphasizing the need for a thoughtful, mature approach that considers the full context of a candidate's experience and potential.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) - Intro

(00:54) - Defining back channels as "underground mafia" of feedback 

(01:52) - The right way to do back channeling 

(03:03) - Maturity in back channeling conversations 

(04:12) - When to do back channeling

(05:43) - Avoiding the "back channeling frenzy" 

(06:42) - Timing of back channeling in the hiring process 

(07:55) - Sponsors - Planful | Workvivo

(10:48) - How to properly conduct a back channel inquiry 

(12:04) - Sponsor - Metaview

(13:40) - Typical back channel communication methods 

(14:50) - Real example of a nuanced back channel situation 

(15:59) - The "family reunion" analogy for bias in back channels 

(17:18) - Importance of considering human growth in back channels 

(18:31) - Handling negative back channel feedback 

(20:05) - Using back channel feedback as a litmus test for candidates 

(20:53) - Criticism of board members' approach to back channels 

(21:51) - Shallowness in high-level back channel feedback 

(22:45) - Wrap

This episode explores the complexities of measuring impact, discusses the trade-offs of long-term strategies, and offers insights for navigating the current backlash.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH JOELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Joelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelle-emerson-4a24225

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Paradigm:

https://www.paradigmiq.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:58) Paradigm's mission and work in diversity and inclusion 

(01:55) Discussion on slow progress in diversity representation 

(03:48) Long-term investments in diversity initiatives 

(06:52) Measuring progress and acknowledging small wins in DEI 

(10:47) Adapting DEI work in response to backlash 

(14:37) Importance of effective messaging in DEI efforts 

(14:48) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(17:26) Distraction from the Backlash

(27:28) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(27:55) Legal considerations and challenges in DEI work 

(30:51) Discussion on problematic hiring practices in DEI 

(34:43) Turning down clients who don't align with DEI values 

(36:37) The role of dedicated DEI teams in organizations 

(39:29) Echo chambers and polarization in DEI discussions 

(44:38) Trade-offs in DEI investments and hiring processes 

(47:38) Debate on blind auditions and diversity in hiring 

(49:45) Wrap

While this transition is painful, it may ultimately lead to a healthier, more sustainable tech ecosystem with professionals who are truly committed to building the future.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(02:03) The Contrast: Past Tech Perks vs Current Reality(03:30) Changing Perceptions: From Love to Hate in Tech(04:43) Sponsor: Planful(05:41) Expectation vs Reality: The Tech Industry Illusion(07:51) First Major Downturn: Impact on Young Tech Workers(09:21) Silver Lining: Creating Better Leaders Through Adversity(11:28) The New Normal: Reaching Equilibrium in Tech Industry(12:11) Wrap(12:48) Sponsor: Metaview | WorkOS(15:30) Outro

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

New York Times: So, Human Resources Is Making You Miserable?:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/03/business/human-resources-professionals-workplace.html

Referenced book:Bad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up:

https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Therapy-Kids-Arent-Growing-ebook/dp/B0CBYHTV2D

—

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:15) "HR Making You Miserable" Article(01:22) HR Community Reactions & The Past Few Years(02:43) HR vs. The Rest of Business(06:20) Taking Ownership and Spreading the Love(08:24) HR's Role & Shifting Expectations(11:00) Learning from Other HR Leaders & Changing the Mindset(13:08) Experimentation and Collaboration(14:23) Communicating with CEOs and Setting Boundaries(14:38) Sponsors: Metaview | Workvivo(15:08) Training Leaders and Changing the Culture(17:06) Relationship Debt and Resetting the Relationship(19:32) The Power of Mentorship and External Help(22:23) Sponsor: Planful(22:33) The Sixth Sense & Influencing Key People(24:54) Taking Responsibility & Shifting Your Worldview(26:33) Resilience and Managing Emotions(08:00) Focus on Solutions(30:00) The Impact of Personal Well-being on Work(31:48) Building Resilience & Prioritizing Yourself(33:10) Wrap

You too can email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:21) Implementing a bar raiser interview process

(00:57) Amazon's Bar Raiser Program

(01:36) Rebranding the "Bar Raiser" Process

(02:42) The Amazon Approach

(03:24) Avoiding Bias & Alternative Approaches

(04:46) DoorDash's Experience

(06:00) Challenges & Trade-offs

(07:18) Sponsor: Metaview | Workvivo

(08:16) DoorDash's Shift From the "Bar Raiser" Program

(10:18) Alternatives & First Principles

(12:31) Addressing CEO Expectations

(13:25) Bias & Homogeneous Cultures

(14:44) The Role of CEOs & Founders

(15:19) Diligence & Feedback

(17:21) Going Slow to Go Fast

(18:17) Misaligned Expectations

(19:10) Start Small & Experiment

(19:33) Wrap

(19:47) Sponsor: Planful

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/?originalSubdomain=uk

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Metaview:

https://www.metaview.ai/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(06:51) The Pain Points of Traditional Hiring

(10:59) Interviews are Broken

(14:20) Conversations are Key

(14:26) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(17:00) The Future of Hiring

(20:00) Conversations in the Future

(21:59) The Evolution of the Recruiter

(24:34) Legal and Accuracy Considerations

(25:57) AI as an Iron Man Suit

(27:50) AI's Next Level: Detection & Trends

(29:31) The Power of Data

(30:41) Sponsor: Metaview | Warp

(32:00) Metaview's Value Proposition

(35:00) The Efficiency Drive

(36:55) The Future of Hiring Tech

(39:23) The Importance of Product Management

(41:00) Metaview's Roadmap

(44:01) Wrap

HR can be more than just a reactive function. Learn how HR teams can demonstrate their real impact on the business as Kelli and Nolan share tips for increasing visibility and showcasing your team's value.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) The Importance of Feedback

(02:17) Mediocre vs. Amazing Work

(03:07) Employee Awareness of HR Functions

(04:41) Town Hall Presence: Communication and Transparency

(05:01) Engagement Surveys

(06:06) The Importance of Transparency - The "Sausage Making" Analogy

(06:35) AMA Example - Comp Transparency

(08:30) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(11:09) The Art of Compensation

(12:19) Transparency is Scary but Necessary

(13:00) Explaining the "Why" - First Principles

(14:00) Time Commitment and Building Trust

(15:18) Strategic Vulnerability and Humanization

(16:40) Wrap

Hear their insights on the dynamic AI talent market covering the evolution of tech trends, challenges in hiring, the changing dynamics of diversity and merit, and the race for top talent.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).